877: Defying the Odds - with Dr. Waded Cruzado, President, Montana State University

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Welcome back everybody. It's your time to ed up on the EdUp Experience podcast where we make education your business. This is Dr. Joe Sallustio back with you again and again, continuing to do what I love, which is to talk to today's higher education leaders about what's happening in our industry and give you multiple perspectives, not just from institutional type, which we have interviewed for-profits and nonprofits and public and community colleges and rural and tribal colleges and HSIs and PBIs and all sorts of institutions, but from the leaders themselves.

We have interviewed diverse leadership across institutions across states across countries to bring you what's going on in higher ed all across the world in the EdUp Experience, but we get this convergence of information and my brain's always full of these great ideas that I get from leaders that I talk to. And it's such an important service. Elvin and I, some days we get tired, ladies and gents. We'll be honest with you. Some days it gets tiring. Another podcast - we've done 860 of them, I think have been pushed out in the last four years. So you think about that - on average, we're podcasting nearly every day. But when we get tired, we say, yeah, but did you hear what so-and-so said? It's like, yeah, what if we didn't podcast that day? We would have never gotten that golden nugget. We would have never been able to pass it on.

And that golden nugget that that president or that leader told us, they may not even have thought about giving it to us the same way that they gave it to us that day when we were interviewing because something that was happening at that time. So much of our leadership is about point in time, helping students at a point in time. Leadership of those that we lead at a point in time. And speaking of point in time, this is a point in time that has been long coming.

We've been chasing our guest - I think we've had to reschedule a couple times. This kind of happens with every guest every now and then but we pinned her down today. We got her and I've brought along a special guest co-host. He was I think a two-time guest, three-time guest co-host somewhere in there. The only thing he has left to do to receive the EdUp triple crown award is to host an episode when I can't, so he would be the primary host. So we'll have to see when that happens ladies and gentlemen.

He's Dr. Bruce Kusch. He is the president of Ensign College. Bruce, welcome back.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Thank you. Great to be with you again, Joe. Let me know when you actually have a cold. You could just do this one on your own if you want to get the triple crown.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: No, no, no, it's all right. It's too late. Always a pleasure to have you with us, Bruce. How's it going?

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Great. Yeah, excellent. Things are going well. We're happy. Lots of progress and lots of fun things going on.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Well, Bruce, our guest doesn't know this, but Bruce emailed me and says, I have a ton of questions for our guest today. I was like, dude, you got to, I got some too. You got to let me get in a couple. No, but he's got a lot of questions. I think this is going to be a great conversation. Let's bring her in right now. Her name is Dr. Waded Cruzado. She is the president of Montana State University. Welcome to the mic. How are you?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: I'm doing fantastic, Joe. Thank you so much for this invitation and hello, Bruce.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Hello, Bruce. He did email me and tell me he has a ton of questions, by the way. That is true. No, no, no, tell us what - tell us about - anybody that doesn't know about Montana State University, what do you do? How do you do it?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Yeah, Montana State University is the land grant university of the state of Montana. That means that we are part of a group of universities that were actually established by Congress back in 1862. So before that time, most colleges and universities were private. Most colleges and universities were reserved for people coming from wealthy families who could afford tuition. And they had very limited academic programs. And 1862, July the 2nd, Congress passed a bill that had been defeated twice by Justin Smith Morrill. That's why it's known as the Morrill Act.

And they established one public university in each state and territory for the union for the objective of educating the sons and daughters of the working families of America. It was the first time that the daughters appeared in a congressional bill. So right now, fast forward 131 years later, we were established in 1893 when the state went public. We were not a state, we were a territory. And now we are the largest university in the state of Montana. And we are living with extraordinary initiatives, including graduation rates and persistence for our students and amazing research that benefits everybody in the world.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: What kind of research did you say? We do - you said you described it as certain - you say? I thought you said amazing research.

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Amazing research since I had it ready. That's incredible.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: I love the backstory of institutions and how they - tell us about you a little about how you came to end up at Montana State University and it'll tell us the story.

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Yeah, I always like to say that I came here because of the weather. So I was born and raised in Puerto Rico. And actually in the city that hosts the sister institution to Montana State, the city of Mayagüez is the place for the land grant university there. I was the first person in my family to go to college, not because I was more intelligent than my parents. My parents were very intelligent, very hardworking folks. But the difference between my parents and me was that someone opened the door. Someone gave me an opportunity.

Ever since I have devoted my entire life to ensuring that no good, hardworking, intelligent young men or women is ever deprived of the opportunity of going to college because I know for a fact that college education changed my family, my trajectory, and hopefully enhanced my community. So I arrived at Montana State University in January 2010 via New Mexico State University, another great land grant university. And if you had asked me 20 years ago or predicted that I was going to end up serving as president of an institution in Montana, I would have looked at you with very puzzled eyes because that - I don't think so. That was not the plan. The plan actually was I just wanted to teach and do my research.

And one thing led to the next. In the year 2003, I left the island of enchantment, Puerto Rico, and I arrived to New Mexico, the land of enchantment. I was convinced I was crossing the twilight zone. And I thought I was going to stay there forever, quite honestly. I loved, loved, loved New Mexico. I love its people. And then in the year 2009, I was approached by Montana State University and the rest is history. I have been here now for 14 years and loving every minute of it.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: 14 years as president, we're going to come back to that. But if I don't pass it to Bruce, I'm pretty sure he's going to put his arms through and choke me. But let me tee him up. His question, get ready. Be astonished. OK, Bruce, now we're ready for it.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Thanks, Joe. Dr. Cruzado, I just want to tell you, I just want to commend you for all the things that you've done as I've read a little bit about you and your background, what you've accomplished there. I don't preside over an institution as large as yours, but having a little bit of appreciation for what you go through, I just think that any leader can learn a great deal from your example and from your accomplishments. I think you're a tremendous case study in higher education leadership in a very difficult time.

There was something on the school's website describing your leadership that I wanted to start out with. Describing you it said, "She's a passionate champion of the land grant university's tripartite mission of education, research and outreach to communities, as well as the crucial role higher education plays in the development of individuals, the prosperity of the nation and the vitality of democracy." That's just amazing. And I just wonder if you would comment about that statement, that description of you and your leadership, your approach. I'm particularly interested in your views on the crucial role higher education plays in the development of individuals, the prosperity of the nation and the vitality of democracy. I think those are noble goals. You're obviously doing that. I just would love to have you comment about that.

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Bruce. And well, as you saw, I immediately started talking about the land grant mission of Montana State University. Because in my mind, it was such an important moment in American history. 1862, there were other congressional bills that are of paramount importance, including for where you are in Utah, Bruce. 1862, Congress gave us the Homestead Act. It gave us the Pacific Railroad Act. And the way in which I think about this is while the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act allowed the nation to grow in a horizontal and economic way, the Land Grant Act allowed us to grow in a vertical manner promoting social mobility. 

When some folks ask me and say, and we want to talk about college preparedness, and they deplore that students are or are not ready for college. I always ask, so how many homesteaders do you think were college ready in 1862? Right? Not that many. And we were undone then. To me, that is the most important part about our commitment to democracy. It is not lost on me, right? That 1862, when Congress finally approved the Land Grant Act, we were in the middle of a civil war. It was the best time for Congress or for Congress people to say, no, not now, let's delay, let's talk about it after the war. And rather than doing that, I think that as a nation, we came together and we envisioned a better and brighter future based on the education of the citizen.

Along with that, for me, it is very important that we talk openly about access. Many universities, maybe yours, and certainly many land-grant universities over the years were quote unquote seduced by, you know, the private universities or the Ivy Leagues. And we want to be like, and then pick your choice of a single named institution. But I think that if all I do as president of Montana State University is go after the best and brightest students, and mind you, we have the best and brightest students here at Montana State. I'm very proud of them. But if I just focus on only the best and brightest, then I think that I reduce the promise of the land grant university. In fact, I think that I reduce the university to be nothing more but a conveyor belt in which the outputs are going to be exactly as the inputs, because we know that those students are going to be successful no matter what. 

I believe in a university that is not a conveyor belt, but rather a combustible engine, meaning we're going to take those men and women, doesn't matter where they come from, doesn't matter how prepared or not they are. And because of the experiences that they gain and the knowledge that we instill here at Montana State. After their time here, out they go and they're competent professionals, committed citizens and happy and healthy human beings. And that's the part about democracy. We cannot have democracy if higher education is just for the few. Our nation will always be better when we have more people college educated and college graduated from our universities.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: I love that. We like to say around here that the value and the worth of a student doesn't have anything to do with their ACT score, their SAT score, their GPA. We just want to build them into responsible citizens wherever they go. So that's a great example. That's wonderful. So Joe, have I got one more?

Dr. Joe Sallustio: You got it, Bruce. You know how this works, man. You can keep going all day if you want.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: OK. So I want to also talk about student success and your commitment to student success. And there was also information on your page about the research, the research grants, the research funding that the university is doing and the leadership that you're showing there. I think it was nearly $230 million in 2023, which is wonderful. So there's obviously a strong research agenda. You also talk about a commitment to student success. And I'm wondering if that is, if you face some sometimes conflicting priorities with faculty or with others who say, I have my research agenda. You know, the student stuff, somebody else is going to have to worry about that. So how do you balance the priorities of faculty that want to focus on research and the effort that it takes to help students succeed. I think some places that may be, those may be conflicting priorities, but it appears that you've done a really good job at figuring out how to balance that. And I just, I'd love to have you comment about that.

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Absolutely. I think where we have found the magic formula is by, it's in the integration of teaching and research and outreach so that they are not seen as competing efforts. In a way, it's fascinating, Bruce, because we have our work cut out for us. In terms of research expenditures and research activity, we are classified at the top of the Carnegie classification. We are an R1 university. But what's also fascinating about Montana State University is that also classified by Carnegie, we are predominantly undergraduate. Predominantly undergraduate. So that means, right, that we need to do far more with those students. And our faculty understand that we cannot just pretend that graduate students or others will teach those students. It is everybody's responsibility. 

So what we have done is that we have put in place a very robust undergraduate research program. And actually, what we want to do is guarantee that every undergraduate who wants to do research will find a placement in faculty labs or faculty fieldwork. And that has turned out to be fantastic because it's a hands-on way of learning. So what I offer to students when they come, it's not to just sit idly in a classroom learning from a textbook that someone else wrote, but rather a hands-on experience with that faculty member who might be at the top of his field or working on some research where they can be involved. And here's what I love, love, love, love about involving undergraduate students in research is that they see that faculty member struggling with a problem, right? Trying to find a solution. The students will be able to see their faculty member even experiencing failure and being resilient enough to come back. I think that is one of the best tools that we can equip our students with today, right? Because everything thinks they think that things are so easy that when they face their first adversity, they crumble down. No, we all have faced adversity. Our wonderful faculty members struggled with some problems, but here are the tools that you have to be successful. 

Let me share one more anecdote, if I may. So on the topic of access, there was a moment in which I noticed that we were attracting 73% of all honors students graduating from Montana high schools, 73%. That is amazing, right? And that is where I said, that's awesome, but that's not enough. So we decided to come up with a program for actually students who do not see themselves as college material. In fact, students that were not even considering going to college. How did we identify them? We identify them through our wonderful extension program. So we have, right, an extension program in every county of the state of Montana. Those county agents know who has a high schooler who might not be thinking about college. They were the ones who were engaging with students in this conversation. 

So we started with these cohorts of 50 students who were not, quote unquote, college material. And we challenged ourselves through research to see if they could do better. Now here's the kicker. We wanted to name that program something appealing and name it after an alum. And we found that example in Maurice Hilleman. So Maurice Hilleman, very quickly. A son of the Depression, his twin sister died when they were born. His mother died two days later, and he was raised by his uncle who lived in a chicken farm. That part is important. This is in Miles City, Montana, right after the Depression. Growing up in Miles City, Montana, young Maurice's highest aspiration was to work in the most amazing department store that was recently opened in the 1930s, J.C. Penney. And I'm sure he would have been absolutely fantastic. But his uncle saw something else. His uncle drove him in his pickup truck to Montana State. They found a scholarship, I should say, because they were so poor they could not afford the $5 credit tuition that we had at the time. 

Fast forward four years later, Maurice Hilleman graduates at the top of his class in microbiology and chemistry, is admitted to University of Chicago, becomes a vaccinologist. Remember the chicken farm? But not any vaccinologist. Maurice Hilleman discovered the vaccines for rubella and meningitis and pneumonia and hepatitis A and hepatitis B. In fact, eight of the 13 vaccines that are administered to our children were discovered by Maurice Hilleman, a total of 40 vaccines by the time he died in 2009. So there you have it. A son of Mile City who did not see himself as college material turned out to be the man who has saved more lives in the world because of the vaccines that he discovered. 

So that's what we challenge our students with. When I called Maurice's widow to see if we could use his name, she asked, is this for talented young men and women in the sciences? And I said, no, exactly the opposite. This is for students who do not think that they can make it academically. Fast forward, what has happened? The program is a great success. We asked students to enroll in 15 credits. We asked them to graduate in four years. We asked them to work for the university, tutoring and mentoring those individuals that come behind them. And as a result, just in our first cohort, we had three students who did not graduate in four years because they graduated in three and a half. And Bruce, the three are young men. You know how difficult it is to graduate young men. So that's how we are putting together research and teaching. Some of the most extraordinary mentors are the most talented faculty researchers that we have at Montana State.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Well, you guys, this is a wow. Before I ask a question that's not as good as Bruce's, I'm going to interrupt this episode for another installment of the EdUp Either or Experience. This is something that I started a couple of weeks ago, and this is a way we find out more about our guest and our guest co-host. And we have some thinking music. I got to make sure I can play. Let's see here. Let's see if it works. Do you hear anything?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: No.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: You hear some thinking music. OK. I'm going to say, yes, pick this or that. Okay. I have a feeling you're going to say, Bruce, you are the weakest link. You could, I could be saying that. Um, but, but let's not assume anything here, Bruce. Um, I'm going to give you a choice. You pick one or the other. If you say both, cause you can't answer, you have to pay me $5. I will collect, I know your email addresses, so I will rack up and I'm Italian. You do not want to owe an Italian. Okay.

Here we go. The first one goes to you, Bruce. And this is to, you guys going to answer the same questions. And we're to start out easy. Bruce, Teams or Zoom?

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Zoom. Every day of the week, Zoom.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: What did, Teams or Zoom?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Zoom.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay. We're going to go a little harder now. Bruce, table that or let's circle back.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Circle back. Gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: How about you?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Let's circle back. Absolutely.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Bruce, call or text?

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Probably text.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: What did?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Call.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay. Okay. Now we're going to go the higher ed route. Ready? Waded will go with you first. Bursar or student accounts?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Oh my goodness. This is fascinating. Student accounts.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Bruce?

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Yeah, student accounts.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: What did, council or committee?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Council.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Council.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Stay away from that committee word. All right. What did, power skills or durable skills?

Dr. Bruce Kusch: I like to just talk about skills.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Yeah. That's that's five bucks. Okay. What did?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Student first or meet students where they are?

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Student first.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Yeah. Students first.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay. Do you guys having fun? We'll do a couple others. Do a couple others.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Great.

Dr. Waded Cruzado: If you do student first, then you're going to meet them where they are. See how this works.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay. Well, okay. Well, we'll throw in a good one. Waded, sitting desk or standing desk?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Standing desk. We're seeing it right now.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: I know you gave me the idea. Bruce?

Dr. Bruce Kusch: I've tried standing, didn't like it. So I'm, sitting desk.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay. Here we go. Waded, want a couple more? Students service or student success?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Student success.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Yep. Student success.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay. Got some good terms for you, Waded. Lifelong learner or pre-K to gray?

Dr. Bruce Kusch: I'm with Waded, lifelong learner.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: All right. Last one we'll do. Waded, culture or strategy?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Culture.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Yeah. Culture all every, all the time. Culture always trumps strategy.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Well, there you have it, you guys, a little in-episode interruption, as we like to say. Now we know a little bit more. Is the music still going? I got to turn that off now. I don't know how to... Okay. That was fun, Joe.

Dr. Waded Cruzado: It's a way of how we think about the terms that we use in higher ed.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: I love the bursar and student accounts one because, and this is going to lead to my question, Waded, because that, I find bursar to mean nothing. It means nothing. It means it only means something to us in the institution. And most people go, what does a bursar do?

So over your time of 14 years in a presidency, which you're bucking the trend, right? The trend is what? Four and change as a presidency, maybe five years. And I've interviewed 270 presidents in the four years that I've been doing this. And one of the most common themes that comes out is you need three years just to get to a point where you can actually start enacting some level of significant change.

14 years is a lot of three-year periods so I interviewed a president not too long ago that had 19 years in the job and I asked the same question. Have you had to fire yourself mentally and say you know what, I've got to get out of this sameness, I've got to figure out how to look at things new. How do you do that? How do you stay fresh over this intense job for so long?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: 100%. You know, Joe, when folks invite me to leadership trainings or to talk with future presidents, and invariably, the question comes about life-work balance, how do I do it? And I tell them quite frankly, abandon all idea of a balanced life, particularly the first few years, right? I think the way I can talk about this, is a presidency is a book you're writing in chapters, right? And therefore of necessity, there will be some changes in pace. So at the beginning, when you arrive new in the position, and it doesn't matter if you came through the ranks in that same institution or you were hired, like in my case, come fresh and new, it is important the first few months for the president just to immerse himself or herself just with tons of face-to-face opportunities. I mean, my first few years, was intense. It was days of 14 hours, 15 hours, just meeting people, learning names, and trying to understand folks. But that's when you are putting together your building blocks, even the culture.

If you make the error of arriving in a new organization and think that because you have your first hundred days and you're going to start changing things left and right, I don't think that's a good idea. People need to know you first. People want to make sure that you're for real. Individuals need to know that what you say is consistent with how you act. And that, my friend, takes time. So I do agree that first, the first three years are crucial in getting to know folks also in putting your team together. As Jim Collins likes to say in Good to Great, having the right people in the bus, in the right seat in the bus, not doing things abruptly, but learning organically about that organization, earning people's trust.

That's the first phase. Then of course, secondly, then you start building upon the first few successes that you're able to accumulate. And then you get to know more of your legislators, if you're a public institution or your alumni, folks who are going to believe in the future, believe in your vision and be partners with you. I will say in my case, a wrench was thrown with COVID. With COVID, all of us had to reinvent ourselves. In fact, after COVID, I said, I don't know how I ever claimed to be an academic leader before. Really? Because that required a lot of many social tools at a distance to persuade, to nudge, make people do things in a different manner first, you know, remotely and then coming back. So that was a big change. 

But to your question, yes. In fact, I don't think that I have fired myself, but I have challenged myself not to do the same things, not to take the same road to my office or, you know, stopping more and getting to do things as if I were brand new. So for example, I just completed yesterday a new round of meeting with every single academic department, sitting down with the faculty, tell me what's going on with you. Tell me about your accomplishments, showing genuine interest in the folks who do the academic work of the university. And then in our last retreat in the summer, I challenged my vice presidents to write a two-page essay. What would I do now, if I were new with the knowledge I now have about Montana State. So yes, you cannot, you cannot out of respect to your constituents, which include not only your students and your faculty, but the people in the state, you need to keep your work fresh every day.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: I knew I'd get to use it. One quick note and Bruce will pass it to you. What's really interesting of what you said at the beginning, that work-life balance, you have to know going in, is somewhat of an opposite mindset of potentially the up and coming presidents of the future in a lot of ways who the younger folk within higher ed that are so protective of that work-life balance. If there are just some jobs, you just have to work and you have to work more than you ever worked in your life and you can't come into it protecting time until you understand what the job is. I do find that through hiring and my own position, sometimes I end up with folks and that's the first question I get in the interview is what, you know, how much space do you make for this time or that time? If I, my parents would have smacked me on the back of the head if I ever told them I asked that in the interview, they would have said, do you actually want the job? But times have changed in that way. But some jobs haven't and some jobs can't. And that's something that anybody who's coming up to a presidency needs to know. You better be ready to hustle. Right? Bruce, back over to you. I just wanted to make that point because it is there's lots of generations in the workforce right now.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: This is such a fascinating conversation. And I would just echo, I'm about to embark on year number eight for me. And it was it was year three. It was three years before I got to the point where I felt like we were really beginning to get some traction, make some progress. So I want to maybe address a topic that's perhaps in some ways for some, not the most optimistic. There's a lot of stuff in the academic press about institutions that are going through deep programmatic change. They're going through budget crisis. They're going through faculty cuts. They're pulling back, which is certainly disruptive, discouraging, disappointing, probably a lot of other D words that we could use to describe the angst and the really the torture, I suppose, professionally that people are going through that no one would like to do, but that leaders have to make some tough decisions that they have to do. And it would appear that Montana State is just sort of going through the opposite, you're thriving, you're growing, you're... But if you, I guess, if you had to consider something like this, how would you approach such a daunting task? And what advice do you have for a university or college president that's going through a crisis like this that would help them navigate some really difficult times and do it in a way that's humane, that takes into consideration the feelings of everyone involved? Students, faculty, staff, anyone that's affected. This is obviously, these are painful things to have to go through. And you've got faculty governance and people that don't see things from the same perspective as a president. It's probably a long-winded question, but I think it's something that's happening certainly around the country. It's one of the issues of our time right now, isn't it?

Dr. Waded Cruzado: 100%. Bruce, let me say, what I would say first is how to avoid getting to that point. And then we'll talk about what happens if you find yourself in that very difficult situation. First of all, I think without casting this person too much, I think that in a way we in higher education have done this to ourselves. Why do I say that? Do you remember, at least it happened to me when I was a freshman a few years ago, even up to a few years ago, it was customary for university presidents to welcome the freshman class with some words along the lines of, look to your left, look to your right, those individuals will never graduate. Are you kidding me? And that became the mantra, right? So in a way, in due time, what happened was universities were seen as failure factories because those individuals who abandon college, they don't dissipate in thin air. They go on with their lives with a profound sense of dejection, of failure. And little by little, one generation after another is just normal that now, particularly with some technological opportunities, that some folks say, why do I need to go to college? College doesn't work. It's not for me. 

So in a way, how do we avoid getting there? It's as Bruce said before, students first, right? When you have an organization for all of us to understand, when we get stuck about how to proceed at Montana State University, we always say, okay, let's put students at the center of this conversation. And the answers are always crystallized. Now, the second thing that I would say how to avoid to get there is to pay more attention, and this is a corollary of the previous, attention not only to the students that you recruit, right? Because we are all, 3,500 colleges and universities going after the same high school seniors. And then all of a sudden, are you as interested in those students who declare your loyalty to you or not? Or are you so, you know, besotten with the new class?

And that's the emphasis that we and you, place on retention or student persistence, right? Have those students give those students very high standards. It's interesting. Students want for us to challenge them, right? But also at the same time, give those students the tools to be successful and make sure that those students don't leave campus until they graduate. I always say when I welcome the freshman class, I tell the freshman class and the parents that I already love all of those students and I'm committed to them. But I want for them, for each of them, to graduate in four years, to cross the stage and receive a diploma from Montana State University in four years. And I always get a standing ovation. Why? Because that's what parents want, right, to have structure to help those students. There are always exceptions, but the majority of the students, there is no reason why they cannot graduate in four years. But there's a lot of discipline and a lot of structure that we have to put in place. What happens if you get to that? And the other thing is you will never be able to out recruit the students that leave the university, right?

Dr. Bruce Kusch: That is gold right there. That is absolutely true.

Dr. Waded Cruzado: You have three classes that stabilize your income, three classes if you pay attention to them. Finally, when we have had situations in which the legislature has made cuts, I have been in a privileged situation in which I have been able to write an email to everybody, tell them about what's going on, tell them about how much money that will be, and then make a commitment when I can to protect people first. So just as with students, I'm going to try to protect our employees to the best of our abilities. Bruce, I was blessed in that my predecessors built a very agile machine, meaning without getting too technical, that only 80% or less of my budget was tied to personnel. That means that I have a lot of flexibility, right? That there are one-time cuts that I can make that can allow me to protect people. But let's face it, many of our institutions are not like that. Many of our institutions, have 90%, 92% of their entire budget is people.

So in that case, I think that you said it, right? The most important thing is for the president to come out first, be very honest, be very, show empathy, right? And to the degree that it's possible, sit down with those employees or those deans or those vice presidents so that they know what's the appropriate tone. The tone at the top is so important. But the most important thing that we can do is try to avoid getting to that, to the point of no return, where you have nothing else to cut when there are no times, no one-time cuts, when there are no operational funds and you have to go to people.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Nailed it. That's tough, right? That's very tough. Can't cut your way to prosperity. Cannot do it. Speaking of being prosperous, we want to make sure we protect everyone's time. As we come to the end of this episode, we always end with - Bruce, unless you have any more pressing questions, I'm going to get to the final two. But you go ahead.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Joe. This has been great.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: We ask every guest, number one, what else do you want to say about Montana State University? That is the question. Take it any way you want.

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Come to see us at Montana State University. This is a beautiful place on the face of the earth. We have extraordinary students. They make my heart sing. Faculty that are just amazing. Just, again, what's not to love? We have hiking, we have fishing, we have skiing, we have every possible outdoor activity. And as I like to say, the most extraordinary and friendly people on the face of the earth. Thank you, Joe. And thank you, Bruce. This has been a lot of fun.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Well, you have one more. But I do, before I give it to you, I got to tell you guys, I was looking back. Here's a fact. On June 28th, 2021, Elvin Freitas sent an email to President Cruzado. That's how long this episode has been cooking - for three years. Not because of you, not because of you. We scheduled it and then I canceled and then we scheduled it and you canceled and then I booked like six months out. I'm just telling you, and you know how you came to us was via Millie Garcia, the chancellor. I think she's at California State. And at that time, at that time, we could not find enough Latina presidents to bring on podcast. And we reached out to Millie and we said, can you help us? And she gave us a list, you're on it. And three years later, here we are. So that's, that's about persistence and time. It's how difficult the job is. It's fitting these things in and look how good this conversation would have never been as good three years ago as it was today. Because I would have never met Bruce either along the way. Sometimes a plan comes together. Tell us what you see for the future of higher education.

Dr. Waded Cruzado: Well, I think quite honestly, we need to sit down and think a lot about this. What's the impact of artificial intelligence? How do we communicate the value added that a college education and the voting four years of you not going directly to the workplace because you're going to get better prepared at a college university. How do we sell that? Our students need to know, our parents need to know, our constituents, our legislators. I think that, again, gone are the days where we could come back complacent every day to our classrooms thinking that I was able to teach the way I taught last year. Those days are gone. So I am not saying, I don't have all the answers, but I think it's an invitation for all of us, right? In higher education and beyond. So that I still believe a lot in the opportunities that college education promotes and having people together. Sometimes a lot of the learning that happens is between those young folks that happen to coincide in a certain cohort. And that is important, but we need to do a better job communicating to the folks why a college degree makes sense now and into the future.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Wow. What an honor to be on this episode with first with my guest co-host. You know him, you love him. He's got a distinctive voice in higher ed. He's Dr. Bruce Kusch. And I mean that both physically and philosophically. Bruce, president of Ensign College. Thanks for coming back, man. I hope you had a good time and you know I appreciate it.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: This was fantastic. This is just fantastic.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: A trailblazing leader on the microphone, yet again here on EdUp, I would find her and connect with her. I was listening to some of the videos you have on YouTube. There are so many leadership lessons in there that we can take away from. Anybody who's in a presidency eight years or 14 years, these are the people that you need to connect with. They have the secrets, ladies and gentlemen. They have the secrets. And I know because they give them to me before the recording starts. That's why I can't sleep at night. Too much going on. Ladies and gentlemen, here she is. She's my guest. No, she is your guest today. She is Dr. Waded Cruzado and she is the president of Montana State University. But it has been an absolute pleasure and honor to have you on. I hope you had a good time.

Dr. Waded Cruzado: This was a lot of fun. It surpassed all my expectations. So thank you so much, Joe. Bruce, I hope to see you soon. You're my neighbor.

Dr. Bruce Kusch: Yes, I would love to come and visit you. And I would invite you to come to Salt Lake City and see us on college anytime. We'd love to have you come.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: See now you heard that guys were still recording. These two are connected on the same email. So we'll do an episode a year from now and see how far we got with those visits. Ladies and gentlemen, you've just ed upped.