890: Not Your Grandfather's Carnegie - with Dr. Timothy Knowles, President, The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, & Dr. Shirley M. Collado, President & CEO, College Track

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Welcome back everybody. It's your time to ed up on the Ed Up Experience podcast where we make education your business. This is Dr. Joe Sallustio back with you here on another episode. And I've told you in the past, we'll never stop doing this. And of course, shout out to the co-founder of this podcast, Elvin Freitas, who ensures that will be true because he has me booked out every single day for at least three months at a time. As we talk to some, if not all, sometimes I think it's all of the innovative higher ed leaders across the world. The insights that we're able to gain and pass on to all of you listeners are absolutely incredible.

And we try to give you varying perspectives, right? This is what this is all about is bringing as many diverse voices to the microphone as humanly possible to talk about how we serve students. We're in an interesting time. I always talk about this in higher ed. As of today, as we're recording this, we're in the middle of the FAFSA, but whatever word behind that that you'd like to, FAFSA craziness, FAFSA simplification.

Whether it's good, bad or indifferent, there are many, many, many students and families that are having trouble getting information right now. It's disproportionately affecting students that are first gen from lower economic backgrounds who don't know how to navigate these processes. And that's an important part for us to do as administrators is to make sure that we are trying to help these high schools facilitate as many FAFSA fill-outs as possible. Fill-outs is an actual word, I think. But we're gonna make sure that we keep doing what we're doing to bring you those voices. And we've got two important voices. One returning voice, and you'll know her when you hear her. But I'm gonna start with the new voice first. Ladies and gentlemen, let's get him on a microphone. He is Dr. Timothy Knowles. He is the president of the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching. Tim, what's going on?

Dr. Timothy Knowles: Joe, thank you very much for having me. Shirley, it's great to be here with you.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Now, see, you're not supposed to reveal Shirley early before because now you've interrupted her applause. I didn't even get the crowd amped up for her, Tim, you know, but that's all right. We're going to give you a mulligan on that one.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: It could be any Shirley.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: That's true. It could be any Shirley, just not the way it could be. But it is the one that we think it is. And let's bring her in right now. Ladies and gentlemen, her name. There's the applause. Settle down, everybody. Dr. Shirley Collado, she is president and CEO of College Track. Shirley, welcome back.

Dr. Shirley Collado: All right. It's great to be back, Joe. Thanks for having me. And I'm thrilled to be alongside my freedom fighter friend, Timothy Knowles.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: It sounds like you guys have a very far away relationship from each other that you just right now. This isn't a close relationship at all between the two of you. I'm excited to have this episode because I feel like you're gonna give each other a hard time at times, which is always a little bit of fun. Tim, why don't you lay the foundation for us and I want to talk about the CPC and we've got some people going "What is that?" and I'm gonna say you got to wait for it, but we're gonna start first by saying what is the Carnegie Foundation? Tell us about the teaching piece of this what you oversee, level set for us.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: Sure. Thanks Joe. So Carnegie Foundation was established by Andrew Carnegie in 1906. It is actually the first not-for-profit organization in the United States. It is the place that brought the world TIAA-CREF, the retirement fund for a vast majority of teachers and professors across the nation and others in the social sector. We helped to establish standards for engineering, law, medicine, and education schools, we created the Pell Grants, we created the Carnegie classifications, which are the R1 institutions, are the ones that are most well known, research one institutions. We also brought the world something called the Carnegie unit, which is otherwise known as the credit hour, or the course credit, so the bedrock currency of the educational economy. So our history is long, we've had a significant impact on both K-12 and post-secondary education across the nation over those 120 years. I'm the 10th president in 120 years, which gives me about a decade to do something useful. We have put our stake firmly in the ground in terms of advancing social and economic mobility for young people across the nation. So particularly first generation, low income, and young people from underrepresented communities to ensure that they can lead purposeful lives. And that's why Shirley and I are joined at the hip because it's a mission we share.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Amazing. What is the Carnegie Foundation not done should have been where I asked my question. But thanks for laying that out for us, Tim. Sounds like it's been a few things. Well, let me ask you before I pass it to Shirley. When you come into this role as president, what's your focus? What are you looking to achieve legacy wise?

Dr. Timothy Knowles: That's a great question, Joe. One of the amazing things about the Carnegie Foundation, in my view, and one of the magnetic forces for me is that it pivots. It is like an incubator for big important ideas over the course of its history. And so a president is hired. They're given space to think with the team, with the trustees, with educators across the country. What are the most important levers that we could push today that would transform both K-12 and post-secondary education for the decade or decades ahead? And so we are, as I said, decidedly focused on helping ensure that the post-secondary sector in particular becomes a much more vital engine for economic and social mobility. It's not to suggest it isn't an important engine. It is, but we think it could be a much, much stronger one. And on the K-12 front, we're taking a very assertive run at the Carnegie unit, which is in essence the conflation of time and learning. So the course credit, well, just by way of example, in 1906, the Carnegie Foundation announced that a college degree, a four-year college degree should be 120 credits today. It's 120 credits. We've learned an enormous amount about how people learn since 1906 from neuroscientists, cognitive psychologists, learning scientists. And we know that learning doesn't just happen in 45 minute increments. Learning happens everywhere. Learning happens at vastly variable rates, depending on the individual and the subject of study. It happens with peers. It happens in informal and formal settings. It happens by solving real problems through experiential education. And yet we built a system where that doesn't happen nearly enough. So in the K-12 space, we're interested in bringing, for lack of a better term, competency-based, legitimately authentic competency-based learning from the margins, which is where it's always existed since Dewey and Montessori, into the mainstream and making competency-based, not time-based systems, the future of K-12, which are more engaging, more experiential, more equitable and more effective.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Epic. Music to my ears when I hear you talk about that as a current higher ed administrator. Shirley, I know this probably was music to your ears too hearing, you know, cause sometimes you, the Carnegie foundation, you know, who, who is that? Where, where are these people? The Carnegie foundation, what are they doing? How do they think? That was really good insight. And surely your college track now, previous, college president did the job as it were, right? This hard work. How are you today? And tell us about college track.

Dr. Shirley Collado: I'm great, Joe, even in these interesting times in education. And as you just heard from Tim, you know, I'm in great company here because we're not only talking about really focusing on what's best for students and especially students that are constantly underestimated and left behind, but really what we need to do fundamentally to shift systems. And so I have the great benefit after serving in public and private higher education and yes, most recently as president of Ithaca College in my home state of New York, have the incredible opportunity, a bit over two years now at the helm of College Track, which we like to say that we are the most comprehensive college completion program and movement in the country. Essentially what we do, which is really distinct, is we dedicate 10 years to students and their families, locally rooted, deeply in community in the neighborhoods that they come from. The vast majority of our students are first in their family to go to college. The vast majority of our students are full Pell grant eligible. So the highest need. And we have students from all walks of life that really reflect the demographics of the neighborhoods that they come from in now soon to be 13 communities around the country, neighborhoods around the country, with Baltimore being the latest addition. We deliberately go into neighborhoods that are not overly saturated with college completion resources where post-secondary credentials are lower than we ever want them to be. And we essentially, if you kind of think about Joe, all the bells and whistles and the privileges that people with wealth and resources and legacies of education get to have in their households. You know, the college advising, the test prep, the advantages to advanced placement courses and college courses, to technology, to a motivational and affirming environment. And yes, a college counselor that doesn't have a caseload that includes hundreds and hundreds of students. We essentially have socially engineered that at College Track on the premise that we will support students all the way through high school into college and through college through our College Thrive program to the completion of a bachelor's degree. And then as Tim pointed out, going out into the world with low debt, social mobility, and living a really purposeful life, having agency. So that's what we're doing. And I get to work across the ecosystem of higher ed, K-12 and career with students that are incredible and are in every classroom in this country, but are constantly swimming in systems that don't work for them.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Tell them like it is. We're going to, I want to just talk about your website for a second and then we'll kind of open it up to both you guys and bring you both in together. The college track website, collegetrack.org, awesome. Right when he gets inside, it says, we can't wait for the future. I read that earlier today and I was like, wow, thinking about artificial intelligence, thinking about education, thinking about being left behind, we can't wait for the future. We have to double down on bringing education. Talk about what that means to you a little bit. We can't wait for the future. Is that a mantra? Is that a motto? Is it a... Talk about it a little bit.

Dr. Shirley Collado: Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for the shout out on the website and the truth about while we've been, everybody in this country has been clutching their pearls, worried about the demographics of our country shifting, the enrollment cliff, all the things that college presidents worry about on a daily basis. Guess what? There are places and people, organizations and institutions that have been teaching the future for a long time. They've been doing that with very little resources and often not the ones that get the limelight. And so the "We Can't Wait for the Future" is about the sense of urgency that we feel right now when we think about the workforce that we need in this country and what it really means with all of these existential things that are shifting and how we think about education and the future for us, the answers, the solutions, they actually come from the people who are most deeply impacted by the issues. They're the experts. They know what's wrong with the system. There's nothing wrong with them. It's really that the systems haven't been working for them. So that's really what we're about. And also this idea of what it truly means to democratize potential. So imagine if you give a kid not just opportunity, but as we say at College Track, we want opportunity, but we also want choice, purpose, and power. And when young people get to be good consumers of their education with their families, and then we affirm that in the systems that they're in, like... I mean, it's just endless. The possibilities are endless. So you can't democratize potential without giving people opportunity, choice, purpose and power. And that's what Carnegie is absolutely invested in. And certainly what the commission is about. And sorry, that's another secret. I'm not supposed to give away the CPC. You'll hear about it.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Opportunity, choice, purpose and power. That's a fact. That's a fact. I love it. I love that as the headline for this episode as we talk about what the future looks like. You're talking about vision. You're talking about how do we look at education in the future? And I think this is where the CPC comes in as we talk about visionary thinking. Tim, over to you. What is the CPC and why was it created and how is Shirley involved? Because I mean, great work getting Shirley involved, by the way. How did this all come together?

Dr. Timothy Knowles: So the Carnegie Post-Secondary Commission is what those letters actually stand for. And this was an endeavor that when I got to Carnegie, I knew I wanted to bring together some of the leading actors and practitioners and thinkers in terms of not just post-secondary, but K-12 and post-secondary. And so the first person I turned to was a person who understood choice and power and agency and opportunity. And that was Shirley. And I said, Shirley, we need to pull together the best minds in literally at the end of the last century, at the end of the 1800s, there was a committee of 10. And this committee of 10 basically crafted the public school system that we have. And it has helped in large measure because of the Carnegie unit and the institutionalization of time equals learning. But it was a group of 10 people who at that time were all white and all men. I turned to Shirley because I knew Shirley knew a lot of people and I knew Shirley brought a vision for learning and what the future architecture of education should look like K-12 and post-secondary. And together we invited a group of 15 of our colleagues, friends, conspirators from across the country to think about what are the most important levers that we can press as a nation to significantly improve outcomes for young people. With the premise being, if I was to summarize Shirley's comments, even put them even in pithier form, it would be talent is ubiquitous. We know that. And opportunity is not. And so how do we make both K-12 and post-secondary institutions much, much more vibrant and vital engines for creating opportunity for the talent that is just rife and rich in our nation and the world. And so we have been working together for a year. We're working on a whole bunch of different vectors. We're interested in new models of post-secondary education in particular that are more affordable, more engaging, more experiential, more aligned, both aligned to K-12 and aligned to the workforce. So really building coherent pathways as Shirley was talking about.

The Carnegie Foundation is going to do with one of our partners who's also represented on the commission. The American Council on Education is working together to reclassify every higher ed institution in the country. And I know they're paying attention because I will get on the phone with 1500 college presidents at the time and they are paying attention to what this reclassification means. One of the things we're looking at is rethinking what it means to be a research one institution. Really historically, that's been defined by how many dollars you have and how many resources you have, how many PhD programs, how many PhD students, how many research projects you have underway. And then the federal government comes along and says, if you're an R1 institution, you're eligible for hundreds of millions of dollars of research dollars. And so it's a self-fulfilling sort of machine that we've built that R1s stay R1s. It can be very, very difficult for those that aren't in the R1 machine to become one. This is lunacy. So we're looking at that, but probably more important on the classifications front, we're also going to introduce in about 10 to 12 months, a new classification that will look at the value institutions are adding in terms of contributions to social and economic mobility. The aim isn't, this isn't a ranking. So this isn't trying to distinguish between the 80th and the 81st institution. This is about grouping institutions like institutions and then saying which of those like institutions are actually driving social and economic mobility most effectively. Then the aim is to learn so that we can actually get better at this as a society. And I expect just as been the case with the R1s traditionally, to drive state and federal tranches of public capital to those places that are actually moving the needle. This is a really important piece of our overall architecture if we're committed to a nation that is actually aspiring to the American dream. We're making this the place where you can actually prevail no matter who you are, no matter where you came from, no matter what your background, your zip code.

So the Carnegie Post-Secondary Commission is working on those and other vectors. I think the final thing I'll say and then I want to hear what Shirley says about it. Shirley and Coyote and Tawanda Jordan, who's the president of St. Mary's, are the co-chairs. But one of the things I love about it is that it's made up of a disproportionate number of first generation institutional leaders itself. So the lenses that are being brought to bear are lenses of extraordinary possibility of knowledge of what both K-12 and post-secondary when done right can bring to young people. And that's sort of living and breathing and woven throughout the fabric of the commission and frankly, a gorgeous counterpoint to the committee of 10, which now is 140 or 130 years old. Shirley, what would you say about the post-secondary commission?

Dr. Shirley Collado: No, I think you really summarized it so beautifully, Tim. I mean, the most meaningful thing for me is the assortment of leaders that are in this space and to have Tawanda and I leading it and shining a bright light on institutions and people who really embody in so many ways the important things we need to be paying attention to for the future of education in this country is really exciting. I think, Joe, the other thing that's important to note is the intersection of leaders that are in K-12, in higher ed, in career, in some of the systems, big public systems or organizations like the American Council on Education. These are not people who usually interact in the work together. It's actually one of the fundamental issues that we have is we don't have these integrated pathways or sectors that actually work for kids and their families. So the commission in so many ways... what we're focusing on, who the players are, how we work together, and what we actually embrace as adding value in the conversation and the work is kind of just, it's not kind of, it's actually counter to what we typically see when people are getting together and gathering and talking about big educational issues. And it is people and systems, and it's the integration of those things coming together to really focus on social mobility and pulling the most significant levers that can work for the future students and dismantle, rearrange, reimagine systems that haven't actually been working.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Those are some consider those dangerous words, Shirley rearrange, reimagine, re-engineer. You did your same change, aren't you?

Dr. Shirley Collado: It's healthy disruption. And it's about time.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: Joe, you know this and your listeners know this, but the value proposition of the post-secondary sector is being questioned. There are people who are saying, is it worth it? And at least as the post-pandemic evidence would suggest, they are saying new sectors of our nation are saying no, perhaps it's not. Yikes! That combined with a 900-year-old business model that may have outlived its useful shelf life, or at least needs to be challenged, combined with fundamental demographic shift in our nation, where fewer students are coming into post-secondary, all create a very legitimate set of questions about what happens next. There are some on the one end of the continuum that says, post-secondary doesn't matter anymore. It's no longer valuable. Businesses will train us. There's another path. We're not of that view. However, we are of the view that we do need new models. We actually do, whether they're inside out models, institutions that are growing the models, or they're models from the outside in, as it were. So on the commission, is a guy, Aaron Ramison, who was the founder of MasterClass and then went on to found a community college called Outlier, who's the outside is really outside in. You also have an Estre de Tominez, who is the president of Utah Valley University, who under her leadership, she grew up in living literally in a house made out of stakes in the Philippines. She as president of Utah Valley University is educating the most diverse school in Utah serving about 40,000 students. She has 12,000 high school students enrolled in dual credit and dual enrollment programming. She's thinking about education, not as a I'm president of a local regional university. She's thinking about it as I'm president of an institution that is focused as much on K-12 as post-secondary as work. So I put that on the table because I think we're trying to be as clear-eyed as we can about the reality of American higher education. And instead of saying, of waving a white flag, saying we think there are ways that we can get much smarter, to make it much more affordable, much more engaging, much more career lined and equally or more rigorous while creating institutions where young people actually feel they belong.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: You know, I want to go back to the CPC just for a second because I want you to know I did get the invitation to join, but you didn't tell me it was that came with invisible, it was like invisible ink or something. So my kid grabbed my leg, I turned to the side. And then it didn't, you know, there was like steps in there and then I lost it. And so that's why I didn't get back to you. But I just want you to know that I got it because you were talking about the most visionary minds in higher ed. So, I mean, obviously, we got a telegram from I think it was your child to say, don't. Yeah, that's probably true, in fact. But you know what's funny about everything that you said, Tim, and I'm going to ask you this question, Shirley, as a former college president. In higher ed, when we talk about change and we talk about time and seat and we talk about the Carnegie unit, the name Carnegie gets thrown around as if as if there's this, I don't know, secret order of the Masons that, you know, every time you speak change in higher education, the Carnegie Foundation president comes out and says, execute order 66 so that you so that you can't change. Right. And it's embedded in higher ed. And we do this with accreditation too. Like, accreditation, Shirley. I know you want to do this new program, but accreditation. I mean, you know. Same thing with Carnegie. And to hear Tim come out and say, first gen students, new models. The Carnegie unit is way old. Like, let's start thinking about other ways. This is dispelling the mythical creature around preventative change in higher ed. As a college president and now in college track, you remember what those people saying, those types of things. How refreshing is it to be part of this change at this level?

Dr. Shirley Collado: Well, you know, I want to go back to what Tim said in that we really feel even with all the disruption and the questioning around the value, especially of a bachelor's degree, of being liberally educated about systems that aren't affordable, that aren't really integrated with K-12 and what students are doing when they graduate and how much debt they have, I mean, so much. And the debates, and you mentioned FAFSA earlier, and we know that our campuses are on fire right now with so many issues. It's odd to say, but all of this movement for me is a reflection of how hopeful we still feel, how deep our conviction is that it really is about reimagining something that can evolve and should evolve to serve students, especially students that are coming from communities without a legacy of education and the financial resources to do whatever they want, or even just the network to make a call and get the job and get the internship or be able to study abroad and have meaningful summer experiences. It's very refreshing. I do have to say too, if you look at the commissioners and Tim's career and our own journey in terms of the work, these are trailblazers that have been in it for the long haul. They have been doing work for a significant amount of time. And this kind of change takes that kind of long-term, we're in it for the long haul, and we have to keep students at the center of what we're doing and deciding. So yes, it's refreshing. You know, I think you know this Joe, when we talked and I was at Ithaca College, I mean, I wasn't on that path to be a president. What this is about is from what positions and areas can we actually have a stake in the work and make change happen? And so I've never been in this work to be a wallflower. I think Tim knows that really well. But you can do that within systems, outside of a system, adjacent to a system, across the system. And that's what I think the commission is actually really reflecting. And what Tim is mobilizing at Carnegie, one is, you know, kudos to Carnegie for looking in the mirror and saying, we're willing to actually look at our history and evolve. And we could do that while still honoring the core essence and mission of this great organization. I think colleges and universities have the ability to do that. Workforce has the ability to do them. K-12 has the, but none of us can do it alone. It has to be like this call to action that we're all really doing together. And that's the part that, you know, we really want to drill into and do. And we've highlighted in the commission, some very specific areas where there is movement. And if we get rally together and push it, we actually can put a stake in the ground and move the needle on several things while there's this kind of catastrophic narrative going around that this thing is a mess and it's not gonna go anywhere. I resist that. We're the ones we've been waiting for, like, let's go for it. And we can do that in good company. And yeah, disagree, it's fine. That's what we should be doing, right? That's the point of being educated. Right?

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Tim, back to you just because I want to just re-ask it and give you a chance to respond. You know, there's a narrative out there that Carnegie has some interest in keeping everything the same. Got to keep the credit hour the same. It's in our best interest to keep R1 institutions as R1 institutions and make sure that there is little to no disruption. And then you go, OK, well, if there's no students come in a higher ed because everybody's questioning the value, then it's not going to really matter what your classification is. We're seeing closures. We're seeing enrollment declines. But Carnegie's interest is in evolution, isn't it? Carnegie's interest is today is in transformation, not evolution. That's what I meant to say, Tim. I meant to say transportation, just so you know.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: In 1906, the Carnegie unit was a brilliant idea. It was a totally unstandardized, non-standardized system that we lived in. And we couldn't tell the difference between Boston Latin School and a little one room schoolhouse on the Western frontier. We didn't know what was happening. It was really happening in each individual classroom across the country. We're at a similar moment, I think, of transformation, not just driven by technology and AI and not just driven by the economy shifting in the ways that it's shifting, but driven by kind of a recognition, like a demand. There's a legitimate demand for a transformed system. And I think we underestimate that at our peril. One of the things we did in the last eight, 12 months was we looked at every portrait of a graduate, which has been developed by stakeholder groups across the country in schools, in systems, and states. So these are reflections of what teachers, parents, professors, civic leaders want for graduates, whether of high school, typically from high school, sometimes from beyond high school. And they had an incredible amount in common. There were 11 core skills and dispositions that show up rural, urban, red, blue, purple, regardless of race, class, that are very consistent. So I would argue that there's an invisible American consensus about the core purposes of schooling that exists. So it's our job to Shirley's point about not waiting for the future. It's our job to help elevate, amplify that and build the opportunity, build the architecture that would enable that consensus to come to be. That's the job of educators. Whether I'm in Utah or Rhode Island or Indiana or Illinois or Texas or New Mexico, it's really consistent what people want for their young people. Maybe the most important thing from my perspective, because I came out of the University of Chicago, I love evidence, I love data, that the things that Americans are saying they want from their K-12 and post-secondary institutions are the things that predict success. They are empirically predictive of educational attainment, of longer lifespan, of healthier lives, of civic engagement, of volunteering and giving blood and voting. So the things that we are after as a country are the right things. What stands in the way is a lot of noise sometimes and a lot of polarization a lot of the time. But we think we can cut through that. We think there's an opportunity. So Carnegie is not standing in defense of a system that hasn't proved to be transformative. We're interested in pushing past that. And we also know we can't do it alone. We have to do it in partnership, which is why we're partnered with College Track. It's why we're partnered with a university on the continent of Africa. It's why we're partnered with extraordinary state leaders and system leaders and civic leaders across the nation, because we know this is a big complicated problem. Whether it's higher ed or K-12, we believe in democratic localism. We don't like a one size fits all solution and nor should we. So the only way you make for transformation in that context is if you do it really locking arms and in partnership with organizations that might be viewed sometimes as unusual bedfellows.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: I want to find out a little bit more about you two just for a second. We're going to do a little fun game here if you will. In fact, Tim, you have a colleague named Keto, you know who I'm talking about, and she said, do that, do that to those guys. So I said, yeah, I'll do it. Let's see here. Do you guys hear this? You hear this thinking music? Okay. It should be helping you think. I'm going to ask you either or. This is another in episode episode, if you will, of the EdUp either or experience. This is where Shirley and Tim, I'm going to give you a phrase, two phrases, higher ed words, things, and you're going to tell me which one you like better. If you choose both, you do owe me money, $5 if you can't decide, and I'll be reaching out to Keto to collect and we'll warm you up. And Tim, we're going to go with you first. Tim, sitting desk or standing desk?

Dr. Timothy Knowles: Standing.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Shirley, sitting or standing desk?

Dr. Shirley Collado: Standing.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay. You can free, feel free to elaborate on these if you want to. Let's go. We'll go to a higher ed one. Shirley, over to you. Unlearn or relearn?

Dr. Shirley Collado: Unlearn.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Tim, unlearn or relearn?

Dr. Timothy Knowles: No desk. Five dollars.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: We're going to... Okay, we'll have another fun one. Tim, over to you. Dot the I's and cross the T's. Or the devil is in the details.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: Devil is definitely in those details.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Shirley?

Dr. Shirley Collado: Amen. Amen. Yes.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay, we'll go a little bit. Shirley, over to you. This will be a phone for you. Student first or meet students where they are.

Dr. Shirley Collado: Love it. Students first.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Tim.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: I think that's the same. I don't think that's an either or. I'm not going with either.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: God, Tim, you're my favorite so far because I keep getting richer. He's such a rebel. I know. And I'm feeling my pockets are getting fatter every time he talks. All right, here we go. Tim over to you power skills or durable skills skills essential skills.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: Hey Shirley, don't be like Tim and keep owing me money. Power skills or durable skills.

Dr. Shirley Collado: I think look, first-gen students have superpowers all the way so they already have that. I'm gonna say durable skills.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay, Shirley will do this one you this is gonna be fun one fun one again. The student's a consumer or the student's something else.

Dr. Shirley Collado: The student's something else.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Tim.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: The student's what the student wants to be.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay, Tim. Interesting in a affordability time. That's one of my favorite questions, right? Tim early morning meeting or late afternoon meeting.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: Late afternoon meeting with with like espresso or wine by the way.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: That those additives don't charge. It don't cost you money. I agree with those. Shirley.

Dr. Shirley Collado: Early morning meeting with a latte or walking while we're talking early in the morning.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Like it. I like it. Okay. Couple more. Shirley collaboration or competition.

Dr. Shirley Collado: Collaboration all the way. It's harder. It's more rewarding.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Tim, I grew up with brothers.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: Okay, so we know which one.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay, this is this will be the last one we do. Tim to you culture or strategy.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: Strategy.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Shirley?

Dr. Shirley Collado: I'd have to go for strategy for sure.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Okay, one more one more. I'll do one more. Shirley, this will be the last one but one also one of my favorites council or committee.

Dr. Shirley Collado: Give me the five bucks both, you know, we're a commission. You see what I mean? I, you know, the issue of death by committee in I write is real. It is. So if I'm forced to choose them, because I'm not going to give you five bucks, I'll go with council.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Fair enough. Council or committee, Tim. Last one.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: I had not sitting on anyone's committee.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Well, hopefully you guys all learned a little bit more about Shirley and Tim as we do the EdUp either or experience, which I probably find more fun than my guests do. But, you know, I do so many of these podcasts. I gotta have a little fun too. But I want to come back around to our two final questions that we want to ask you both Shirley and Tim. Shirley, I'll start with you. What else do you want to say about College Track? Anything you want to say, anything we didn't get to, anything of importance? I want to give you the open mic. So tell us what we need to hear.

Dr. Shirley Collado: Gosh. Thank you. Thank you for asking that question. I think two things that I would say is one, we are relentlessly optimistic. And it's really important that we focus on the gems and the gifts that young people across this country have and just be unapologetic about that and not see them as the problem. That's one, just kind of culturally speaking, it's just so important as we think about the answers to these complicated issues. And the other just really fun thing, Joe, if you see us in the news about a week ago, we just announced an amazing, incredible cross sector partnership with the Baltimore Ravens.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Amazing.

Dr. Shirley Collado: You said it. M&T Bank and College Track coming together with Baltimore City Schools. And we will have our first ever Baltimore Ravens College Track Center in the great charm city of Baltimore. But what's most incredible about that partnership, it's about everything we talked about today. It's the integrated pathways. It is an NFL team, okay? Coming together with a bank and a city school system and a nonprofit and saying, we're collectively going to address this issue and we wanna build integrated paths in K-12, college and career and do it in a city that's so important for the future of American education. That investment is huge, so stay tuned. We'd love to come back and talk with you about what's happening in the great city of Baltimore. And it's actually something that the commission is going to be looking at because it's such a great example of the things that we talked about today. So thanks for letting me plug that in.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: That's a victory. And since you said it, we'll invite you back to talk about it when you're ready. How about that? Whenever you're ready to come back.

Dr. Shirley Collado: Well, I'll have new sounds for you.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Tim, same question to you. What else should we know about the Carnegie Foundation? Anything you want to say, anything you want to talk about? Open mic.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: I would just say if your listeners are interested in the transformation of the American high school or catalyzing post-secondary so that it becomes a more powerful engine for social and economic mobility that I genuinely meant it when I said we believe in doing this in partnership and that we welcome your inquiries, your questions reaching out exploration of ways that we can work with you. So, so to please do that.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Final question to you both. And you could take it however you want, take it together one at a time. What do you see for the future of higher education?

Dr. Timothy Knowles: It's a moment and I define moment in probably a this the shape of a decade. But we are in a moment of incredible transformation. There's going to be pain in that transformation and lots of change. But there's enormous amounts of opportunity to think about what is really perhaps the most important engine for our nation and for the world historically. There's an opportunity to make it fit this century and really actually do justice to the young people who are coming its way. So yes, it's going to be uncomfortable. Yes, it's going to be painful. Yes, we're going to see change. And we're going to see a lot of opportunity for evolution, transformation, growth and serving young people more effectively. The undisputed champion of the world is change. A billion and never, never lost.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Shirley, same question to you. What do you see for the future of higher ed?

Dr. Shirley Collado: You know, I couldn't have said it better than Tim. I think when we situate the context of where we're in, if you think about it, Joe, like we just went through a global pandemic. The democracy in our country is the most in the most vulnerable state that I've seen in my lifetime. When we think about the unapologetic nature of the climate crisis, what's happening just globally around people's ability to actually negotiate and support one another across lines of difference. These are huge, massive things that have created this sea change that we're currently in. And so my thing around this is I say to my colleagues in all sectors of business is do we need anything else to happen to prove that something really has to shift? I mean, think about the most historical things that we've been able to witness, the three of us, in our lifetime. And so I just think like, I don't need any more proof that this is the most urgent moment. And as Tim said, the most hopeful because there's no path that we can take but a path forward that looks quite different than what we've been used to before. It just doesn't work anymore. So I'm hopeful even with all of that, but I just wanted to kind of contextualize, think about just take stock and audit of what's happening just in the last decade. So now it's time to move and we can only do that with shared humanity and community. And I'm -

Dr. Joe Sallustio: You left out one thing that further dominant, it's further, further, puts a fine point on the humanity piece and that's this artificial intelligence. Something you didn't mention.

Dr. Shirley Collado: Whole another conversation.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Yeah. A conversation, but it's embedded in actually the work that we're doing for sure. So yes, yes. Lots has happened. But a lot happened on this episode. We had a great conversation. I learned many things. I think what I'm most excited to hear is about synergy between forward thinking leaders that have the means to create change. And so it's been an honor to talk to both of you. I'm really inspired to hear about the Carnegie Foundation and the way you're looking at the future of higher education. We hope you guys had fun today, especially on the EdUp either or experience, which now we know some of your preferences. So who's sitting, who's standing, you know, who owes me money and who doesn't in Tim's case. So here we go. Let's get him out of here. Ladies and gentlemen, first, she is the president and CEO of College Track. She is Dr. Shirley Collado. Shirley, what an honor to have you back for the second time.

Dr. Shirley Collado: It's an honor to be here. Thank you, Joe. You've been a gracious host. Thank you so much.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: And I'll pay you for saying that later. And of course, our second guest, he is Dr. Timothy Knowles. He is president of the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching. Tim.

Dr. Timothy Knowles: We thought, I thought that, you know, you left me for a second cause you, you know, the EdUp either or experience gotcha. But in the end you came back and that means a lot.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: My pleasure. Really appreciate it. Well, we hope you guys had fun. There you have it everybody. You just ed upped.