889: Passport to Possibility - with Terrence Cheng, Chancellor, Connecticut State Colleges & Universities

Joe Sallustio: Welcome back, everybody. It's your time to EdUp on the EdUp Experience podcast, where we make education your business. This is Dr. Joe Sallustio back with another episode of the EdUp Experience in the midst of a five-letter acronym causing consternation, frustration and unbelievable consequences for colleges and universities all across the land. Those letters would be F-A-F-S-A, called FAFSA. If you don't know what's going on, you're not paying attention. If you are dealing with what many of us higher ed administrators, higher ed adjacent CEOs and companies are dealing with right now, then lucky you. 

What I know is that students, especially those incoming for fall term this year, are incredibly frustrated. Their families are wondering what to do. I have actual real-world examples of this as my niece is looking at colleges right now. They're working deadlines, they're working packages. Some monies come in, some colleges haven't gotten back. What a confusing time for those that are looking at college and our unreal responsibility as administrators, faculty and staff to help students navigate this black swan event that is leaving many, many institutions in a bad spot right now in closing and merging and other things. 

You have to think forward in this day and age. And I've got two forward thinkers here with me on this podcast. I would say this is a little bit like an 80s reference - Voltron teaming up here today. We've got Voltron coming, if anybody has ever watched 80s cartoons. I guess just me, since nobody else is probably going to say anything, maybe even nod your head when I'm talking. But I've brought minds together to tell you how we serve students, what's going on in higher education today. 

And my first person I want to introduce is my regular, now regular guest co-host because I think once you pass three or four episodes, you become a regular. Ladies and gentlemen, she is the one. She is the only. She is Laura Ipsen, CEO and president of Ellucian. Laura, welcome back to an EdUp mic.

Laura Ipsen: Thanks, Joe. It's great to be here. And I think I'm a regular because you sent me the mug.

Joe Sallustio: Well, you are a regular and I love having you here. And you can regularly come back anytime you want, you know it. And by the way, I must say thank you for having us, the EdUp Experience at E-Live 2024 in San Antonio, along with approximately 6,000 of our colleagues across higher ed. It was such an honor to be there to help tell the Ellucian story and what's going on in higher ed. So thank you.

Laura Ipsen: No, it was awesome having you there. It's just a great opportunity to bring our community together. Like I've always said, Joe, the community is our superpower in higher education, how we all work together. And I know our guest today is quite a community builder. So I'm excited to be here.

Joe Sallustio: You know, odd question for you, Laura, before I introduce our guest. You say superpower a lot as you talk. Have you ever thought about what one superpower you would like to have if you could choose any?

Laura Ipsen: Oh my gosh. Wow. I think, and you got to remind me which one, because we shared our superhero costumes. We did that. When I was at Microsoft, I dressed up as Black Widow and that was a lot of fun. But I got it. You got to remind me which one is like the one that just like is fast, like move with speed.

Joe Sallustio: Well, super speed. 

Laura Ipsen: Yeah. So you got to have speed in EdTech, right? Speed. You got to have speed. So that's where we are today.

Joe Sallustio: All right. Well, you talk fast, you move fast. Ellucian is moving fast. I know that from what I heard in your product releases. So congratulations. And we're going to bring our guest to the microphone now. He's got a thing or two to say about moving fast. They've gone through some incredible transformation recently. Ladies and gentlemen, here he is. He is the chancellor of the Connecticut State Colleges and Universities. He is Terrence Cheng. Welcome to an EdUp mic.

Terrence Cheng: Joe, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.

Joe Sallustio: Terrence, where in the world are you today so we can let our audience know a little bit about the life of a chancellor?

Terrence Cheng: Yeah, thank you. I'm actually at the Capitol here in Hartford, Connecticut. We are one week away from the close of this legislative session. And, you know, we've been plugging away now for almost three months, working with legislators, working with the governor, working with community leaders, and just really trying to build as much support as possible to get us the resources that we need to do the job that we are here to do for, you know, 85,000 students that we serve here in Connecticut. So here at the Capitol, we got a week left to go, and so we're going to keep grinding until they sign that budget into law, and hopefully we'll be in a good place.

Joe Sallustio: I want to ask you before we get into the details of the work that you're doing at Connecticut State Colleges and Universities to just wax a little poetic on FAFSA, what you're seeing there, how it's affecting students. What's your 30,000 foot view of what's going on in the state of Connecticut?

Terrence Cheng: So I think the good news on FAFSA is that it's actually starting to get better. Right. Obviously, there have been obstacles and challenges that the entire industry has been going through. Anytime we try to do anything big that is seismic and frankly groundbreaking and potentially life-changing for millions and millions of people, you know, we wish and hope it's going to be a smooth ride, but seldom is it ever. And so definitely some tough road that we had to travel, but packages are starting to go out now. I guess good news from one of our universities. We have six institutions and one of the universities just said that packages went out and that it looked like it went through pretty smoothly. So hopefully that's a sign of good things to come for the next few weeks while we try to really close out this enrollment cycle.

Joe Sallustio: Victory. A little victory, a little good news in some difficult times is awesome. Level set for us. Tell us about Connecticut State Colleges and Universities and roles. Chancellor, you said about 85,000 students, six institutions. I mean, this is an incredible scope of work that you're dealing with. How's it going?

Terrence Cheng: So the institutions, yes, there are six, but we have over 20 campuses and nearly 30 locations where our education is being provided. That includes community centers, that includes correctional facilities and prisons where we are working with the justice-impacted. But we have 12 community colleges that have recently been merged into one singularly accredited institution. So now it's one institution with more than 12 locations, which is pretty remarkable. On top of which we have four universities. And we have Charter Oak State College, which is our singularly accredited online institution. 

So in total, again, the total number of students served is 85,000. It is a majority-minority system. So over 50% of our students are students of color. You know, we have a high percentage of Pell-eligible students and, you know, long story short, these are students that look to us as their ladder, their path, their future and built upon higher education for social mobility. And ultimately the state looks at us to be the workforce development and socioeconomic impact driver in a way that the flagship and frankly, many private institutions are not going to be and frankly are not designed to be, right? But our public regional system is designed to do exactly that. 

So I couldn't be more proud to be in this role as an immigrant, as a first-generation college student, as a person of color and now a leader of color to really kind of represent folks that I feel like I resonate with because I understand their journeys and it just makes me feel even more impassioned and makes me want to fight even harder for them.

Laura Ipsen: I can't help but chime in because it's one of the things as we've met a few times that has been so impressive - your leadership to support minority students, first-generation learners, you know that firsthand. And then some of the underserved communities. When I think about system-wise and what you're doing, this transformation and a level of consolidation is really exciting. And I'm curious to understand, as you're there working for funding during this legislative session, 'tis the season for many chancellors and presidents across the country, what's gonna be most critical to get the job done to support these students, make sure that more of the students that are at risk from high school that are getting in. I saw that you had a partnership to automated acceptance with, I think, Campus Board, and also your new initiative to get 10,000 students in with Let's Get Ready. I mean, these are things that really have an impact. Can you share more about that?

Terrence Cheng: Yeah, I mean, look, I think the philosophy is very simple and we try to stay away from words like, you know, transformation, right? Everybody wants to transform. But I think that's dangerous. I think it's dangerous to think that way. And so if we're going to transform, we got to do it through the fundamentals. The fundamentals are easy. Our system and institutions and systems like ours should try to serve as many people as we can, whether you are a 17, 18-year-old, first-time, full-time freshman, or you are a 35-year-old returning to the workforce parent, or you are a 50-some-odd-year-old individual who's looking to make a career change. We need to be able to serve you with credit and non-credit. We need to be able to serve you in the classroom in person and online synchronously and asynchronously. We need to do a great job by you with great curriculum and with wonderful student support and with really excellent pedagogy. 

And then the third piece of this is we got to help you get a job. Right. And I know that's a tough thing for the 20th century paradigm of higher education to think about. We're not a job mill. We're not a worker mill factory. But at the end of the day, students today, regardless of the age, they want a job. They want gainful, career-sustaining, life-sustaining employment. And if we're not giving that to them, then what are we doing? You know, and so we have to be more intentional and we have to tell the story of those wins. 

So programs like Let's Get Ready, programs like our auto-admit program, you know, doing a better job with transfer, doing a better job with retention. Yeah, with the Common App. I mean, these are things that we have to do. But these are fundamentals, right? These are fundamentals. And so there's nothing super flashy about this. It's about doing the work we've always done but doing it for the 21st century.

Laura Ipsen: I wanted to just insert one more thing because as you think about students and they want to know: Is my degree worth it? Will this get me to where I need to go in my life and a career and a job when I graduate? Because many have, you know, debt, they have student loans. So I guess my question is, you know, we're also at this time, Chancellor, where artificial intelligence, machine learning are dramatically changing many, many jobs, just like the age of the internet did computing. So, you know, one of the things that we're doing that I'm curious how you're looking at is how do we use AI to discover the degrees to skill sets and map that to jobs of today and the future? That's super powerful for all of us to think about right now.

Terrence Cheng: Yeah, I agree. I think that first, I would say that as we wrestle with the kind of new landscape that is shaped by AI, we have to recognize that AI has actually been utilized for a long time now in certain industries such as banking and finance, right? And that has been kind of on the more quiet side because it's been more backend work and now it feels more front end. But AI is not something that's brand new to us. 

I think AI is also something that as much as we may feel it is a threat that is going to replace, it's certainly going to change things. But I think AI is not going to control us. We are going to utilize it. Right. And no one's ever going to be able to replace the kind of magic and power and beauty of the human brain. I just don't believe that maybe, you know, beyond our lifetimes. But I think for the foreseeable future, AI is a tool and an asset. So I think for us, we just approved a new master's degree in AI at Western Connecticut State University. We will start offering that program in the fall. We have a kind of tech corridor that we're building at Central Connecticut State University that is related to both AI and data analytics at the undergraduate level that will dovetail into the graduate level. 

And we have to look at the use of AI in my estimation - and something I'm going to push all of my presidents and all of our people across the system to really try to embrace - is how does AI help us do our jobs better? Right? Can we use AI to support students better, keep them at a higher retention rate, give them the resources that they need in real time? Because again, we're trying to extricate ourselves from a 20th century paradigm of delivering education and student support. But, you know, as you know, from your industry, you know, it doesn't stop for anyone. Right. And so we have to push and we have to not just catch up, but go with and maybe even get in front of the curve there. But it's not easy in an industry like higher ed, as we know, because it's been built a certain way and has functioned this way for a long time. We got to start changing it.

Joe Sallustio: One time I said something, I was joking around with Laura and she's like, that's not really funny, Joe. And so she launched an AI program through the internet at my computer and this kept happening. You were banned from the server. You were banned from the server. And I was like, Laura, is that your actual voice? I didn't know. I'm just kidding. But there's so many possibilities that we imagine the worst when it comes to AI. Right. We all saw Terminator. We saw Skynet. We think there's going to be robots walking around locking us in our rooms. 

And we're really, when it comes to higher education, how can we use artificial intelligence to catalyze access for students? How can we make education more accessible? And I love that you talked about your background as a first-gen student, immigrant student. How does your background and getting to this level, looking at technology in the future, right? Because when you're a first-gen student, you're really not thinking about technology when you go to college, then you ascend through the ranks and you're overseeing this wide array network, people, students of all kinds, and you have this technology horizon coming from humble beginnings, now looking at the future of technology. Can you talk about how you lead? How do you think about the future, both for when it comes to educational access, but also embracing technology?

Terrence Cheng: Yeah, it's access and opportunity. And I think technology is again, it's going to be a tool. It's going to be an asset that hopefully creates even more access and more opportunity, right? If we don't use this as a chance to really kind of flatten the playing field more and bring more people into the fold, then all we're doing is exacerbating opportunity and achievement and success gaps that already exist, right? So we have to be able to utilize this in a way that's going to help people, especially if we're serious about equity, especially if we're serious about, you know, DEI and belonging work. 

And, you know, look, here in Connecticut, diversity, equity, inclusion are not bad words. I know they are bad words in other states, and I am damn proud to work in a state and in a region that still kind of tries to walk the walk as much as possible when it comes to DEI work. I just remember a student telling me, and this is anecdotal, I realize that, but a student telling me that several students actually have told me this, that COVID and taking classes online actually helped them. It took the commute away that ended up devouring hours of their days. It allowed them to juggle the lives, complicated lives that they have as a caretaker, as a parent, as someone who has one or two jobs. It allowed them to actually accelerate in certain ways. It also, listen, it also was painful for a lot of students and a lot of folks, right? 

But I think there are glimmers within our experience there where we all were completely reliant on our technology that shows that this can be a real benefit. I mean, I look at, for instance, Charter Oak State College. Again, this is an institution that is fully online that caters almost exclusively to an age group that is 27 to 50 years old. Right? These are adult learners. They are some college, no degree. They are folks looking for different career pathways. And so from my own background, I've always just feel like I understand what it's like to be a poor kid. I understand what it's like to be told that you can be this, but you can't be that. I understand what it feels like to not have certain things, right? And those are kind of experiences that are deeply ingrained in me. And so, you know, it just makes me feel like if we don't grab what we can and use technology to our advantage, all we're doing is trying to fight off change. And, you know, in the history of time, change is undefeated, right? So it's stupid if we don't basically embrace this.

Laura Ipsen: Well, listen, I will say, Terrence, that if all chancellors and presidents and leaders thought like you, it would be amazing because there's a lot of fear of AI. But if you look and say, you know, we have to be realists, but also lead with enthusiasm, there's so many wonderful things that AI can bring to helping all of us be more productive. Those are table stakes right now. But then also see ahead, see around the curve for students that are at risk.

The technologies that we're building, all of our new student innovations all deploy AI. Number one, we always look for biases, but we look for how do we accelerate student success and their experience, how you do that in an iterative way. And yes, these technologies are transformational, but you don't transform all at once. You have to explore. So having systems like CSCU very powerfully look at how AI can support DEI, how you set the guardrails and governance to make sure that you don't, that biases don't come in. Those will be things that, you know, we're really excited to see leaders like you leading the way, making sure that we use AI right ways and focus on the student success.

Terrence Cheng: Yeah. And I'll just say, you know, I, again, having come through the faculty ranks and I'll actually be teaching a class in the fall. And I said, shoot, I got to figure out how to talk to the class about using ChatGPT, right? And what am I going to say to them? And frankly, am I really there to be a kind of AI cop? And so what I'm going to say to the students is look, AI is an asset, it's a tool, right? But don't take away your own human intellectual prowess and agency, right? It's not about a grade.

You know, you're gonna work, you're gonna get a good grade if you do what you need to do. But this is about your own development, your sharpening and your growth. And so I think academically, pedagogically, we have to deal with how we think about AI, right? And how we incorporate it and use it. But I also think when it comes to the student support services, that gets me really excited, you know? And I just think of, what if you had, I keep calling it like a super Siri. So I hope Tim Cook doesn't want to sue me because I have no money anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Joe Sallustio: You probably love it.

Terrence Cheng: Well, well, listen, I'm happy to kind of put this out there and Laura, I think I actually chatted with one of your folks about this last time we saw each other at the event. But, you know, what if our students had a super Siri and our students, they stop out because of life. It's not because they're not smart enough. They stop out because of things that happen to them.

So what if a student could access an AI that was institutionally kind of grounded and say, I need to set up time with a tutor. I need to set up time with someone to sharpen my resume. I'm not feeling too great these days mentally. I'd love to talk to a therapist. And guess what? My car just broke down. And so I need to get my car into a mechanic. And then the super Siri could say, well, guess what? Joe's Auto is open this Friday, and I'm going to make you an appointment there. And I see that the mental health counseling center also has time. And I'm going to set you with a virtual appointment there. And then the career counselor, their office is next to your dorm. And so I set up time there and your academic advisor and so on. Right. Because those are things in real time.

And by the way, SuperSeries can tell you not to mention you have a bio exam next Tuesday. Right. I mean, these are the things that folks could really use that reminder, that help, that support. And if we could use technology to do that, so it's not predicated on this idea that everyone's gonna pull them up from their bootstraps, you know? Guess what? I didn't have parents, you know, all we knew how to do was pull ourselves up from their bootstraps. My parents never told me I needed to go see a career counselor when I was in college. You know, they never told me I needed to work on a resume. You know, they never told me those things, because they didn't know what they didn't know. And so I think we can use technology and help those students to see things that maybe aren't gonna be brought to their attention otherwise.

Laura Ipsen: Well, Terrence, you'll be excited and I'll just make a little plug because all of the innovations that we just launched at Ellucian Live and you're on our Banner system, all the student capabilities have AI and things like our Communicate product and then also our Journey project, our product or using AI to help students map their degrees and although they're learning into skill sets to open up the aperture for jobs and to have more seamless communications to scale the staff that you have. I know that it's always been a challenge at CSCU to have, you know, students want more advisors and access. And I think between digital and now AI, they can have that real-time opportunity to solve some of the toughest challenges to what you mentioned that forced them to stop out because they just, there's too much all at once. And they're trying to figure it out. And that's where technology and AI can help life get better for these students and for your faculty and administration.

Terrence Cheng: I completely agree. We just have to stop. You know, I think the challenge here, you know, and I don't mind saying this, you know, I feel like through the decades we've built ourselves into, you know, a kind of a philosophical monolith. Right. And we think that everything we do is kind of sacrosanct and untouchable. And I just don't think that's a healthy way to look at things.

We have to embrace the idea that things are going to change, that change is, it's not always good, right? But it can be better than we think it's going to be if we are open to it and adaptable and just doing the best that we can. Because again, if you just resist change, all you're doing is fighting against the inevitable and you waste the energy and the opportunity that can go into making things better for people, right? And we have to center that. We're here to help students. We're here to help people. We're not here to necessarily defend our own territory and keep ourselves comfortable all the time. Because if we do that, then we stop serving the people that we are here to serve.

Joe Sallustio: Well said. And it's time. By the way, Laura, before I get into it, I did hear a giant ding go off and I know it wasn't my sound effect. So I have to ask you if you're getting your own sound effect board now.

Laura Ipsen: I think it was a text message coming through my laptop.

Terrence Cheng: No, you know what it was? It was me because I'm sitting here in the Capitol and so they're voting on stuff and there's all kinds of stuff happening and there's dings and microphones and you know, there's all kinds of...

Joe Sallustio: I was like, Laura, come on. I got to be the sound person. You can't get your own. There's no way I can compete with all your sound effects and bring a few more to the table. I'm not hearing enough.

Laura Ipsen: I know. I know. It was well timed.

Joe Sallustio: Well, the Wi-Fi delay does it. It does make a difference, but I'm going to have, we're going to do a little in-episode episode.

The EdUp either-or experience. And this is where I'm gonna give you two words, phrases, ideas, and you're gonna select which one you like better with explanation if you'd like. You can't say both. If you do say both, you owe me $5 and now I have both your emails so I will collect. All right, so know that there's a penalty for not answering.

Terrence Cheng: Yeah, Venmo.

Joe Sallustio: Yeah, Venmo, you can Venmo me. And I heard this word, so this is a hard one on that, but I heard, Terrence, I heard you say it. So we're going to go to you first. Are you ready?

Terrence Cheng: Yup.

Joe Sallustio: Terrence, pedagogy or pedagogy?

Terrence Cheng: Pedagogy.

Joe Sallustio: Pedagogy. Laura, we need to know the answer to this age-old question.

Laura Ipsen: I'm going to follow Terrence. Pedagogy. I like just the go part of it too.

Joe Sallustio: Me too. And in fact, no one knows the real answer. There isn't one. It's just whatever you prefer. I think I say pedagogy though also.

Terrence Cheng: All right. This is a great way to find out about these mythical creatures, these CEOs in higher education who...

Joe Sallustio: Right. It's a godly goal, but it's pedagogy. At least that's what I've always said and I will continue to say. But anyway, I believe you didn't... Aren't you an English major too at one point?

Terrence Cheng: So, you know, I used to be an English professor in a past life. So, you know, I might have credibility.

Joe Sallustio: Nothing like made up words. All right. We're going to go to Laura for this one. Eat lunch or skip lunch?

Laura Ipsen: Skip lunch.

Joe Sallustio: Terrence.

Terrence Cheng: Eat lunch.

Joe Sallustio: I'm on the lunch camp on this one, Laura. I might work all the way through, but I believe in...

Laura Ipsen: I believe in intermittent fasting. So oftentimes I don't. OK. It makes me so clear headed.

Joe Sallustio: We'll go a little bit harder now. We'll go... Terrence, over to you. The student is a consumer or the student is something else.

Terrence Cheng: Man, that's a tough one. You know, I'm gonna go with the student is something else because I don't believe that the student comes to higher education or any kind of education strictly as a product. So that's my kind of brief rationale. I think there's more to it than just a consumer to me is someone looking for a product. And I don't think higher education is a product.

Joe Sallustio: Laura, same question.

Laura Ipsen: I will vote first next because I actually agree. A student is something else. Yes, students come as they're very multi-dimensional. So part of it is like you have... In some ways you think of them as consumers, but they're... They're learning, they're changing, they have many dimensions of how you work with a student. And so I don't think we can just view them as consumers.

Joe Sallustio: Very good. All right, Laura, over to you for this one. Let's table that or I'll circle back.

Laura Ipsen: Man. I'm trying to figure out what I say most of the time. Remember, a $5 penalty. I'll circle back because tabling, you know, I used to do a lot of work in government affairs and like tabling, it seems very like political. So circle back.

Joe Sallustio: All right. I'll table that or let's circle back, Terrence.

Terrence Cheng: I don't really say either, but I'll circle back because I think it just sounds like something more like I would actually say.

Joe Sallustio: Yeah, me too. They're kind of both a little cringe-worthy though, right? It's like they're just like those business words that we love.

Terrence Cheng: Yeah, yeah. It's like I play a business person on TV, so I'm going to say this word, right?

Joe Sallustio: Yeah, exactly. OK, Terrence, over to you. Student first or meet students where they are.

Terrence Cheng: I'm going to say students first. I just feel like we have to keep the students at the top of our priority list. So they should be number one on that on any of our lists in education. The student has to be number one.

Joe Sallustio: Laura, over to you.

Laura Ipsen: Terrence, Students First. Number one, I love Dr. Paul LeBlanc's book, Students First. And so I do say that and here's why. I think if you make decisions and we do thinking about what are the best outcomes for students, that's what the institutions that we serve care about. Then you make that based on the feedback from institutions, always putting students first. If you meet them where they are, they're not always where you want them to be. Right? You meet them where you are. You got to get them where they need to go, but you got to put them first. And, and, and it's not always about meeting them where they are.

Joe Sallustio: Like that. All right. So we'll do a couple more. Terrence, over to you. Lifelong learner or pre-K to gray.

Terrence Cheng: Lifelong learner for sure. I've never even heard pre-K to gray. So definitely lifelong.

Joe Sallustio: These are some of the terms I like to bring in. I like to just gather all the terms that we vernacular I hear throughout higher ed and...

Laura Ipsen: That's what this little mini episodes are trying to define what these things are.

Joe Sallustio: Laura, same question. Lifelong learner or pre-K to gray?

Laura Ipsen: Lifelong learner and and we have a wonderful board member Deborah Quazzo who is the partner for ASU plus GSB. Her term is cradle to gray. So so I don't know. I'm a little sensitive these days on the gray part. So I'm actually... My mother was in higher education and and before she retired, I think she was in closer to 70, she worked on building a center for lifelong learning and she ran Students for Disabilities and Student Success at Virginia Commonwealth University. So she always talked about lifelong learning. And that was one of the things she instilled in me is being a lifelong learner and being curious. I think the other one just really documents like how long and if learning only goes till you're gray, I think you learn all the way till you're not on this earth.

Joe Sallustio: Yeah, I love just everything for life, right? Be curious. My mother is 87 taking Spanish classes.

Alright, one more. We'll do one more. It looks like you guys are having a little bit of fun. So we'll do it. We'll do two more. Terrence, come in early or stay late.

Terrence Cheng: Stay late. I hate coming in early. I'd rather try to exercise or sleep in a little and then, you know, work a little later.

Joe Sallustio: Laura?

Laura Ipsen: I must stay late because I'm with Terrence. I like to get on the Peloton in the morning. So if it's too early, then I miss that jump start. I just can't do it at the end of the day. And my brain doesn't like to turn off. So, you know, I was reviewing a document I think at 11:30 last night. So stay late. But it's not... It's not a location. It's... It's a way of working that we have now.

Joe Sallustio: OK, last one. Last one. Terrence, over to you. Culture or strategy?

Terrence Cheng: Well, you know, culture eats strategy for lunch, as they say, right? I think culture is... is to me is the dominant force these days, good and bad. So I'm going to go with culture.

Joe Sallustio: Laura?

Laura Ipsen: I'm a culture fanatic as well. It's culture and people that always lead the way. You can have the best strategy, but if you have to build a culture to drive a strategy and execute and have an amazing team, it doesn't matter. So you've got to build culture first and... I think the best institutions and leaders like Terrence are building a culture of success, a culture that's with DEI, a culture around innovation and getting comfortable with change. It makes people uncomfortable, but you have to be comfortable because that's part of learning. So it's always culture.

Joe Sallustio: Well, there you have it, everybody. This concludes another episode of the EdUp either-or experience with no music this time, but I'll add it later. So it sounds dramatic. Thanks for participating to my guest host and guest. What'd you guys think? Kind of fun, right? And find out a little bit about each other?

Terrence Cheng: I thought it was great. I love it. This is better than... This is better than what I usually do on an afternoon. So I'd much rather be with you all to be quite honest.

Laura Ipsen: I learned I'm not going to email or call either of you in the morning. That's what I learned.

Joe Sallustio: But I prefer late. I prefer late. You know, I'm texting you really late, Joe. You know?

Terrence Cheng: Yeah, I know. And I'm always up like, yeah. What are you doing up? How do you do that?

Joe Sallustio: I thought you were going to ask like pasta or potatoes. I'm literally writing that one down for the next guest.

Laura Ipsen: The next one I was going to ask, I was going to ask Terrence to answer dot the I's and cross the T's or the devil's in the details?

Terrence Cheng: Definitely dot I's cross T's. I say that to a point where I'm sure my staff wants to physically strike me.

Laura Ipsen: I don't like the word devil, so I'm dot I's.

Joe Sallustio: My goodness. Well Terrence, we want to continue this episode. I like to break up the conversation sometimes because we do have... I like to remind people that this work that we do... We have to enjoy it or it can't be done appropriately. You've just gone through an incredible... You said not the word transformation... Incredible reimagining of the community college system in Connecticut. Can you talk about change management a little bit and people and acceptance and or inertia? What was the experience like?

Terrence Cheng: Well, I came into this while, you know, things have been going already for about four years when I took this role on, you know, and that's what makes it even more interesting is that you had to come into it. Well, let's be honest, it was not in great shape. Okay. And so here are the things that I learned is that it's not, it's not where you are. It's how you got there. Right. And, and the transparency, the clarity, the communication, all of that messaging, you know, when you go through something this big, this ambitious, this audacious, you gotta over communicate, you gotta be overly transparent. And when you don't do that, that void is filled with all kinds of conjecture that it's not healthy. 

And I think the other thing that I learned is that you really got to recognize people's emotions and feelings because it's not just about the work, it's about the people that do the work. And I'll say that one of the things we didn't do was recognize that there was loss in all of this, that people went through something big. They'd worked for these institutions, separate institutions for decades. And then all of a sudden it felt like they were being smushed together and their feelings, their emotions, their histories and identities tied to this work was not being respected and recognized. Their voices were not heard. And, you know, it was hard. It was incredibly hard for them. And it was, you know, hard for us because we are trying to keep the train moving forward. But at the same time, you know, you're not getting anything done if your folks are not going to be there with you and for you as well. 

And so, you know, obviously budgeting, projecting, you know, all of this work started to happen before COVID, then COVID hit. So, you know, the numbers just got completely blown up. But, you know, at the end of the day, we landed the plane. There was definitely turbulence, you know, while we're working on metaphors here, a lot of turbulence, but, you know, we landed it and we're now working to really rebuild a lot of relationships and trying to be ever more transparent. Sometimes that means we're so honest and transparent and folks really don't like our answers, but that's okay, right? Because we got to stand by that. But one of the things that really has resonated with me is that loss. And if we're not respectful of people's journeys and the loss that they go through in a process like this, then all we're doing is creating even more damage and that's not a healthy situation for any of us. And again, not healthy for the students.

Laura Ipsen: And Terrence, what are your biggest learnings from this transformation? And would you, is there anything that you would have done differently as you've done a consolidation? You know, your friend in Pennsylvania, Chancellor Greenstein has done the same thing. Like what are the lessons learned for others? Because we do see more consolidation across higher education to strengthen, not to remove opportunity, but to strengthen the institutions across many states in systems.

Terrence Cheng: Yeah. I think one of the first things, and I'll just say, whether it's from the merger that was just completed or any big move, it's to bring as many stakeholders to the table as early as possible. And I know that's like in every business book out there in the universe, but it's true. Like if you don't get all of your co-authors or your hopeful co-authors to the table from the jump, then you're just waiting to get rocks thrown at you along the path, right? And you break trust. And so I think getting those folks to the table early, trying to figure out where folks are coming from, how can we get a win for everyone? And then also really just, you gotta be really honest and level set appropriately and then communicate about what it is you're trying to achieve and why and don't let... Don't let the narrative get taken over with with those, you know kind of outside voices. You got to control the narrative with the things that you're trying to do and why that's not always wine and roses, right? It's always not, you know, we're gonna make a trillion dollars when we do this. No, but if we can say listen our student outcomes our graduation rates and retention rates are just really not where they should be. Our transfer rates are not where they should be. Our student success or academic momentum rates are not where they should be. Our students deserve better than this. 

And then if we work towards that shared goal, and even if we come from different perspectives, at least we can always kind of point to the same North Star. And so I think that's something that we just, as a system, we didn't do that, right? And it became very polarized and oppositional and fractured and contentious. And so we've got a lot of healing we need to do, but we've got to continue to try to do big things. And my hope is that I and everyone around us will continue to learn from our experiences.

Joe Sallustio: You said something really interesting around the North Star. What was your North Star? I mean, I think that's very powerful for everyone to say, hey, we have a common mission and there's a North Star. What did that look like for you at the time?

Terrence Cheng: So I think there are a few pieces, right? To be very blunt, financially, the institutions as separate entities were not doing well. That's number one. The retention and graduation rates were not good. The student success rates in terms of the percentage of students that pass or fail first year English or math or whatever those metrics are, whatever metrics you wanted to use to measure success. They just weren't where they needed to be. We were trailing the regional average as well as the national average. There are problems we need to address. And so that was one big part of it. That is attached directly to obviously financial modeling, enrollment strategies for the future. 

But then there's also a massive equity perspective on this. The large majority of our community college students, even greater than our system as a whole, are black and brown students, right? And so if we are failing them, we are also failing our equity mission. And so I think what we need to do is always constantly boil it down to three or four or however many solid pillars there are that direct us toward that shared north star. So even when we don't agree or we're about to kind of go down a rabbit hole, we have to pull ourselves back and say, but wait a minute. Does that move us towards the goal, the shared goal that we all agreed upon? And if it doesn't, maybe we need to drop it or we need to adjust. So I think it's about that focus.

Joe Sallustio: I want to be sensitive to everybody's time. And Terrence, we always ask the same two questions of every guest to end our episodes. One, what else do you want to say about the Connecticut State Colleges and Universities? Anything at all, anything that came to the top of your mind as you're thinking, anything you want us to know, take an open mic moment.

Terrence Cheng: Sure. Thank you. I think, you know, one of the things that I'm so proud of is that, you know, it's the over 90% of our students come from Connecticut, are educated and trained in Connecticut and stay to live and work in Connecticut. So when there are investments and support for our system, you are literally supporting the state. We are the primary girder of socioeconomic development and workforce development and social mobility. I mean, there's no two ways about it. So listen, Yale gets all the attention. UConn gets all the attention. I get it. I worked for UConn for almost six years. I love UConn, right? And Yale is Yale. I understand that. But Yale serves maybe one, two percent of our population at best, right? UConn maybe serves, you know, a larger percentage. But everything else from there, everything else, let's just say, you know, from 15 to 20 percent all the way through the rest of the continuum, those folks come to the CSCU system, the community colleges and our universities. 

And so I'm so proud of that. I'm so proud of our faculty and staff who continue to wrestle through some challenging times. And, you know, the fact that we are, you know, an equity-minded system and our institutions, you know, one of our community college campuses recently, they stepped up when there was a drag queen story hour that was going to be held at a local library in the community. And the library started getting threats. And, you know, people were lining up to protest and all these things. And this is a small community library. They're not equipped to handle this. Our library at that community college campus stepped up and said, we will host it. Right. Because we have security and we have this and we have that. And they did it. And guess what? We got bomb threats and then we swept the place and there were no bombs. And then we had the event and there were protesters and we had security and the event went off without a hitch. And then afterwards there was another bomb threat. But guess what? We did it and our people put in the work and they again, they walk the walk because they talk the talk and that's the kind of system we are. And again, I'm just so proud of that. And, you know, it's something that I wish we talked about more, the wins and the good things that we do in public higher education instead of all this negativity.

Joe Sallustio: Shout out to doctors Elsa Nunez and John Maduko, who also were both guests on this podcast in the past. I guess I've got to get the other four on here, Terrence, so I could use your help doing that. Final question for you. What do you see for the future of higher education?

Terrence Cheng: Yeah, we got to adapt to online and continuing learners. I don't think there's anything, you know, in my kind of future vision that is terribly unique. We got to adapt to the demographics. And we got to bring 21st century education in terms of modeling and paradigms and sensibilities to a 21st century student body, right? The students today, they don't function the way, you know, someone like me, I'm 52 years old. I function a certain way, right? The students today don't function the way I function. Their brains work differently. They use technology differently. They see the world differently. And it's up to us to work with them and serve them, not to mold them into versions of ourselves, maybe here and there if we've got some good things to pass on, but we got to really work with students and try to bring them to where they want to go. And we owe it to them. And frankly, in our state and for any state funded public institution, we owe it to the state to really work with them and try to drive in the direction that is going to be sustainable for the entire entity. Because at a certain point we all pass on through these jobs. And someone else is going to pick it up. And so if we're not doing right by the next group of people who's going to pick up where we're going to leave it off, then we're going to be failing them. Right. And I just don't think we can afford to fail the people that are coming after us.

Joe Sallustio: Hey, Joe, I think Terrence and I would say you got to put students first, dot the I's and cross the T's, circle back, modernize your pedagogy. What did I miss Terrence?

Terrence Cheng: I don't know. That was pretty good. Cause I forgot.

Laura Ipsen: Skip or eat lunch is the only one that you missed, I think.

Joe Sallustio: Laura, what did you think of this conversation, Laura?

Laura Ipsen: Amazing. And you've got the amazing button, so you better hit it, Joe.

Joe Sallustio: I was going to wait until I outro'd Terrence, so you got a little ahead of me, but I'll hit it now. Amazing, amazing, amazing. That's my amazing button. That's my most frequent button.

Laura Ipsen: I know. It's wonderful. Describes a lot of leaders. It is. I learned so much. A lot of fun to be on here with you, Terrence. I want to say Chancellor, so thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Joe Sallustio: Thanks. Well, there you have it. Yeah, everyone, my guest co-host, frequent guest co-host and partner. She is the one and only Laura Ipsen, CEO and president of the giant ed tech company, Ellucian and Laura always an honor and pleasure to have you by my side co-hosting amazing people in higher ed. So, you know, you're always welcome back.

Laura Ipsen: Thank you, Joe.

Joe Sallustio: And our guest today, he's your guest today. He is the chancellor of the Connecticut State Colleges and Universities. He is Terrence Cheng, and he is also a two-time author, many-time author and podcast host, which, of course, I'm out-showing you. But Terrence, you get to plug your stuff too. So tell us quickly about your podcast before you go.

Terrence Cheng: Yeah, thank you. And it's called Office Hours. We just launched it. And it's really to highlight the great folks here in Connecticut, legislators, students, you know, board members, community leaders, the folks that really do the hard work every single day to keep this machine running. So, you know, I don't think we can talk about good positive things enough. So I'm just happy to be a part of that.

Joe Sallustio: There you have it, everybody. You just ed-upped.