791: Educating for Peace - with Olli-Pekka Heinonen, Director General, International Baccalaureate

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Welcome everyone to the EdUp Experience podcast where we make education your business. My name is Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson. I am your host today filling in for the great and world-famous Dr. Joe Sallustio. I am a community college trustee at San Jacinto College in Southeast Houston. I'm also the owner of Vida Linda Consulting, a higher education leadership consulting firm. Find me on LinkedIn. It's always a pleasure to meet with our higher ed community and with others.

I often get to host or co-fill in for Joe Sallustio as a host on the show, but I am very excited today about my guest co-host because he has an unusual background and he has a lovely perspective on his purpose. He is the senior advisor for the Project on Workforce at Harvard University. He is also a former public servant, former chief innovation officer at the U.S. Department of Labor. And what I learned about him was that he feels strongly about replicating the opportunities that someone replicated for him. He has a very beautiful origin story. I encourage you to look him up and to connect with him on LinkedIn. His name is Chike Aguh. Chike, it is a pleasure to have you today. Please say hello to our audience.

Chike Aguh: Thank you so much for having me. I really look forward to this conversation. Just thank you all for having me here in this really beautiful space that you all have created.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Thank you. It is a beautiful space and it's a fun space and it's an innovative space. And speaking of innovation, our guest today is the director general at International Baccalaureate. His name is Olli-Pekka Heinonen. And Olli-Pekka, it is fascinating to talk to you today. I did look you up as well and I'm not going to give anything away because we're going to let you tell your story. But I am going to bring in really interesting points that you make on things like interaction society, on the ethical considerations of a new era, on how the different eras like the industrial era and the information era have kind of determined how we assess and think about education. It is a pleasure to have you. Please say hello. Tell us who you are, what you do and why you do it.

Olli-Pekka Heinonen: Thank you. Thank you so much for giving the opportunity to join. I really look forward to our discussion with both of you. Yes, I am Olli-Pekka Heinonen and I am the Director General at the International Baccalaureate and have been in that position for two and a half years. And I am trying to act in a way that I would get the education system called International Baccalaureate to move closer to its purpose, which is to make the world a better and more peaceful place through education. And that's actually something that quite often I learned that kind of purpose statements are something that are spoken in the official speeches and then forgotten.

But I must say that in the case of IB, I hear it quoted every day. It's very interesting that it's very deeply in the DNA of people working in the organization and in the whole community. So I'm trying to just align us all to do a better job for education globally as we are an organization working in 159 countries with about 5,700 schools of which about 1,900 are in the US.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Very interesting. So International Baccalaureate, tell me what you specifically do. What does the organization do? Clearly you have an extensive reach and very wide engagement. Break it down for our audience. What do you do if you had just a few lines to tell us how it works? What would those be?

Olli-Pekka Heinonen: Well, IB is providing educational programs. We are together with schools, creating learning paths for those schools, for those school communities to be able to provide those four education programs that we are responsible for. Those programs touch students from three years old to 19 years old. We are not in direct connection with the students, but the schools are. But we are giving the schools the capabilities and the program frameworks that have been successful for 55 years. 

IB was created actually out of conflict. It was really created with the idea that the people who created it had experienced the Second World War and were very conscious and had theories about the idea of creating an education system which would enable that to never happen again. So it has a very strong social mission behind it. And then those people came together and started to create the first program. 

And the main ideas behind it are: First of all, giving the breadth and depth of education in one package, having a very holistic approach of student development and also enabling going deeper in certain subjects. Inquiry-based approach is another issue that it's known for. Being able to have the high quality of curiosity, asking the right questions, understanding different perspectives, being able to do critical thinking, and in that sense, the constant learning capability. 

The service orientation is maybe the third element that I would like to mention. The idea that you cannot actually pass the diploma program without doing service for the community or the society at large. It's not only about what you can get out of the world, but it's really strongly emphasizing also the idea of what you can do for the world, and really that connection with what's happening in the world, making sure that education and schools are not separate institutions. Education is about the world.

Chike Aguh: I think Olli-Pekka, I think this is really powerful. I'd like to drill in there a little more. I started my career as an educator in New York City almost 20 years ago, taught second grade. For those of us who are teachers, we know International Baccalaureate here in the States as kind of a gold standard, if not the gold standard, particularly advanced curricula, particularly for folks in the high school setting. 

I have one set of questions on your career in government. As a former public servant myself, I'm sure we can trade stories. I'll save those for later. But one of the big questions we're wrestling with here within the States is what should kids be learning? There are a bunch of political questions which we might come to, but there's I think a more foundational question, which is that education is this battle between the timeless and the just-in-time. There are things that we, that human beings have been doing for thousands of years that we think are really important. You've actually spoken to a number of them, curiosity, leadership, communication, and so on. But then there are ways the world is changing very quickly, particularly in regards to technology. 

And so I'm curious about the IB process for figuring out how you change over time in terms of what you believe students should actually be learning. And then very specifically, what are the big things that you're looking to integrate into IB in the coming years, particularly as technology is not, I keep saying changing, but it's changed already. So I'm curious, what's your process? And then right now, what are the things that you're looking to bring in to adjust as the world and the economy are really changing?

Olli-Pekka Heinonen: Yeah, thank you. I think that's a great question. I would again go back to the history of the organization, because it was created by educators, by heads of schools, and that has been the mode of operandi in the organization, so that it's very practitioner-oriented. And what do I mean by that? I mean that having also worked with a national education system, we don't have a similar kind of political decision-making on the top level of the organization. But we are very strongly all the time connected with the practitioners, the teachers, the heads, the administrators. 

And actually we have about 50,000 educators around the world who are bringing in their expertise for us to develop our programs. And they are also the ones who are doing a major part of implementing them as they are involved in organizing the workshops for professional development of other professionals, doing the marking of our exams, creating the exams, taking part in the curriculum reform and the reform of the programs and so on. So in that sense, that is the learning that we have created inside the organization. 

And what is then content-wise coming to your question about what are the things that students should learn? I think that we are living in a special time in the sense that the idea of the intergenerational transfer task, that everything that we humans have been able to create so far will be transferred to new generations, that will be important in the future, but it's not enough. We have to be able to support the students to be able to create their own future. And that requires different things. 

Of course, it requires the competencies. And there's been already for more than 20 years that discussion about 21st century skills. And I've started thinking that they are called that because it takes a whole century to learn to teach them. Of course, there's a huge gap still in education systems between the talk about them and then how they can be embedded in the pedagogical solutions and the reality of everyday work in schools. And that's something that we're working very strongly with, with different universities and experimenting all the time with schools. 

Another thing that we're seeing becoming important is the identity creation of the students so that they can create their own identity which can and will enable them throughout their life to find their purpose. What is it that really lights them up? What are the things that they find meaning in? And I think that's an issue that is more and more important to the young generation, really to see what are the things that in the world around them are meaningful. 

The last thing I would like to mention, something that we're experimenting with at the moment is: If we're thinking about the purpose of IB, making the world more peaceful and better, then there's the question that comes with that, how do you make peace? How do you do good? Or even how do you make better happen? And then we come to the questions of understanding, for example, how the world works as systems, looking at sustainable development goals, for example, that how to understand what kind of involvement and action is needed to give one's best and reach the potential to make those systems function better. And it also is then about understanding change leadership and futures thinking. And I think those kinds of capabilities are something that will become more and more important in the curriculums of K-12 education.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Olli-Pekka, you say two things or you made me think of two things as you were speaking. One of them at the very end when you kind of took this into a powerful philosophical question of how do you make peace and tying that to what we're teaching students in our systems today. And I immediately thought of how this is kind of tied to family units. How what part of your approach feels very familiar to me because it's what I try to do as a mother to my children to know who they are. You said identity creation for students. And I think you would agree as parents that we're constantly seeking to make sure that our children know who they are and that they know what they want to do. 

You mentioned, Olli-Pekka, in an interview that I saw, questions about what is beautiful and how do we teach our young people to ask those questions and to determine what is beautiful to them. This idea of peace and making the world a better place feels very far-reaching for me in our country right now. And, but so beautifully aspirational that I think that the question that I heard you ask in a podcast, in an interview, if the world changes, what is taught or if the world changes, then shouldn't what is taught and what is assessed change as well?

I just didn't anticipate, and I'm just expressing my surprise right now in terms of this humanity we have here, I didn't anticipate that we would be aiming to teach such deep, deeply held core values in a program. So I commend you for taking us in that direction. I think Chike, you had a question or a statement about that. I'm just pleasantly surprised to find us talking about something as deep as how do you make peace?

Chike Aguh: And I have a question that's maybe a thought, but this is kind of moving ties to the point one that I had. You mentioned at the top of our conversation that there are 159 countries where you all are doing work. And I am also curious how you, you know, my parents and my family, I'm the first person in my entire family born in America, my family's from Nigeria originally. And so I think about, you're also accounting for a massive geographic, cultural demographic variation across all that. And so I'm curious how you think about the universal versus the particular. How do you leave that room for these school leaders to put in their own cultural context? But then also there are some things that whether you're in Nigeria, whether you're in the United States or whether you're in Nepal, there are things that every student should know and the classes that they should have. And so how do you think about that as you all do this? It's a hard task even within a single country. It's a hard task to have a different geography, let alone across 159 countries. I'm curious how IB thinks about that.

Olli-Pekka Heinonen: I'm grateful that you asked that question, because I don't think it would have been possible for us to be in 159 countries without the fact that actually, the IB programs, especially when we're talking about the programs from three to 12 years, the Primary Years Program, and then from there on to 16, the Middle Years Program, they are more than strict curriculums. They are frames, they are approaches to teaching and learning.

That means that they are always embedded in the local context. So it's always the question of the national culture, the national languages, the question of what are the legislative boundaries in that region that we're working. So that's the thing that really enables it. And it's a very deliberate decision because we do believe that you have to know your own culture, your own language first. And then that actually enables you to value also other cultures, other perspectives, and to see the larger picture of the global reality. So that's how it is really happening.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Olli-Pekka, we know that this is a rigorous curriculum that it is well known for its rigor. But when it comes to the student experience, what is different for them? What will they find in IB that they have not seen before?

Olli-Pekka Heinonen: Well, I would like to take up what is the feedback that I hear the most often when I meet students who have gone through the IB programs. The first thing they are saying is that the first years in university were so much easier for them than for others. With the IB Diploma Program, they had already done things that normally are done only on the university level. And so I think that is something that they are experiencing that is different. 

Another thing that is really different is, I would say, the inquiry approach to really feed that curiosity of young people and to gradually teach and support them to start to take responsibility for their own learning. They are ready for that kind of step. And I think that is something that is so important in today's world where we know that the pace of change is so fast that you have to constantly be capable of dealing with unexpected situations and new challenges. 

The third thing they are saying is that the IB program is tough, that it's highly demanding, that it was a struggle, but I'm glad that I went through it. That's what they are saying. And I think that's true, that it is demanding, especially because of the breadth and the depth that we want to give all the students.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: And would you say with that inquiry-based model that there is an opportunity for someone like me with a background in education and someone like Chike with a background in teaching as well, that there is an opportunity for differentiation based on student need? We know that equity is a big concern for us in our education systems and making sure that students are all starting off from as equal footing as we could possibly provide and also individualizing instruction so that we can meet students where they are. Is that part of the IB program, that differentiation and that individualization of instruction?

Olli-Pekka Heinonen: Yes, it is. It's understanding the needs of every student and understanding the development phase of that student and being able to evaluate what is the progress that they are making. And in that sense, formative assessment is a big part of the IB program and a constant dialogue between the student and the teacher. So definitely. And I fully agree with the idea that that is also the way to reach inclusive and equal education. It's not that we're treating everybody the same, but I think that there is a bigger need in today's world to really be able to understand the diversity of the students and to be able to support each student the way he or she needs support. 

That's looking at the PISA results, for example, of the developed countries. There's no progress there. It's a flat line. And I think that's the reason that in the developed countries, the national systems have kind of hit the limit when you try to reach equality through doing the same things for each student. And to really make progress, you have to move to the next more challenging level of personalized learning and support.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: I can't help but think about this idea that we are somehow getting better or that some organizations, institutions, schools are getting better at inclusivity and equity and individualized instruction and differentiation. But we're faced with this new era, which you called the interaction society, Olli-Pekka. Where AI is so advanced that you said, Chike, earlier, it's happened. It's changed already. Or one of you said that we are not in a changing society. We are not in changing tech. We are in changed tech. We are absolutely behind the game, I think when it comes to understanding the power of AI, but how do we merge those two ideas that we have advanced technology and what you aspire for, which is an interaction society, right? Somehow I'm tying that to technology, right? An interaction society, not among people only, but also with the technology that we have at our disposal and marrying that with providing better instruction to all students so that they can achieve identity creation and they can ask these important questions and they can have an inquiry-based approach to life. How do those ideas of individualization and light speed technological learning go together?

Olli-Pekka Heinonen: I think that is really the piece where the new technology can help. I see that the biggest advances that AI, for example, and other digital applications can bring to education are connected to course and class planning for teachers or being able to lighten up the administrative burden that a lot of teachers are struggling with. In that sense, freeing up time to really meet the students. And that's really what I think we have a lack of, is that time to meet the students and be able to support their learning. And that's actually a very basic human capability. And we should make sure that we don't lose it.

Chike Aguh: I think back to me almost in 2006 when I was a first-year teacher. And I think what you say is very accurate. If I were to break down the percentage of my time that was focused on teaching or preparing for teaching versus other things, it was not what I would have liked it to be. I think that's true. I was sure of teachers then and I think it's very true of teachers now. And I think there are some powerful applications of that. 

Let me ask one other thing. So one thing that I'm sure it's not just in the US, but many educators are nervous about AI because they are afraid that it also becomes a crutch or a short circuit for some of the critical thinking that an IB curriculum wants to create. Teachers are afraid of, you know, if I can ask ChatGPT or Bard to produce an essay, does that take away what I went through, what I had to learn to write painfully, and so on? And so I'm curious about the advice you have for educators, particularly from an IB perspective. How do you think about the uses of AI because it's here, we can't put it back. But how do you think about that? What advice would you give educators on how to think about using AI, particularly for such a rigorous curriculum where critical thinking, writing, and inquiry are such important pieces?

Olli-Pekka Heinonen: Yeah. I think we come back to the question of that human connection with the students. When the ChatGPT launches were done, we started thinking about the question of whether we need to change something. We pretty quickly actually noticed that we had all the policies in place already and the instructions in place already to cope with those kinds of challenges. Because there have been test factories or essay factories for a long time. And we had created that kind of instruction that the teachers should, on the course of making a larger essay, involve and discuss with the student so that they can observe whether the final outcome is really a production of that person's own thinking creation. 

And of course, we are also seeing that AI can be used in writing essays, but then it should be quoted properly, the same way that we are quoting any research that we would be using as part of the essays. More generally, I think it might have a lot of impacts on, for example, doing homework in the traditional way. But I think that if there are certain things that need to be studied, if you end up with a situation where the materials that are needed to be studied, you're asking questions about them the next day, that's something that you cannot bypass by AI. It's the human who is showing what they are capable of doing and not just bringing a paper back. Nobody knows where it comes from.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Yeah, that's fascinating. When you asked that question, Chike, I thought, I saw an article just yesterday on using AI for lesson planning. I mean, I'm not teaching right now, but it sure did make me want to play with some things just because that's fascinating. You said that the crux of it, Olli-Pekka, is time. And we can differentiate, and we can individualize, and we can incorporate rigor, and we can use an inquiry-based model for student identity. But we need time, and how do we give the gift of time back to teachers? We deploy the use of AI. 

So I love your advice, Chike. I love the question that you asked. We're going to move now to our last two questions. And our first one, Olli-Pekka, is, is there anything that we have not covered that you want to make sure that our audience knows about? And the last question is, what do you think the future of higher education is?

Olli-Pekka Heinonen: Good questions. I think maybe one thing that I would like to share. We've been doing a tour around the globe, partly virtually online and partly physically, a tour called Festival of Hope. It was the idea that right after the pandemic, we noticed that there was a strong shift in the attitudes towards the future, well-being, mental health issues. And we saw that there was a danger that some of the students might lean towards apathy and cynicism and being passive. And we thought that we have to do something.

We came up with the idea that we wanted to help the students to direct that energy for bad feeling that they were having towards action. And that is the hope word that we're using as a verb. It's what we can do to make a better world and create hope in that sense. And when we've been doing it, we have created safe spaces for students to really engage in discussions about the questions that are most meaningful for them. And in those questions, I've understood the wellbeing challenges that the young generations are having in a new way, understanding the pressures that they are feeling in the world that we have created for them. 

And that is something that we in charge of education, we cannot say that that's not the business in schools. Somebody else take care of that. Because if the minds of those young people are burdened with those challenges, the learning won't happen. It is also connected to the learning. And in that sense, it's also a huge pedagogical possibility to touch those questions that the young generations are feeling meaningful in everyday teaching and learning. And that's what I think should be done. And well-being doesn't mean that everything must be easy or nice or fun. It means that the challenges must be on the right level and of the right type that they motivate the younger generation. And that's something that I wanted to share.

Regarding the future of higher education, that's a challenging one. I do believe that there is a need to move even more to the multidisciplinary direction to being able to combine different discipline approaches and understand them. But I think one of the things that we as humans, what will be an important task for us is to be able to reach goals together, utilize each other's abilities in a positive sense. 

Another thing is that I think universities should make sure that the connection between the learner and the teacher is strong. And it's a direct linkage, because that's really where learning happens. 

Maybe the third one, and maybe it's wishful thinking, but somehow I would like to see that, because in today's world, if you want information, you go to Google or you ask ChatGPT. If you want knowledge, then you probably turn to universities. But the question to be asked is that if you want to start a path towards wisdom, where do you go? Where do you go in today's societies? And somehow I would wish that universities would be places for giving the motivation to start that path of that kind of lifelong path to get interested and intrigued by the ideas of wisdom.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Very good. Thank you so much. I'm just going to sum up kind of what you made me think about while you were sharing all of that. One of them is you cannot learn in dysregulation, in emotional dysregulation. And that's why it's so important that we prioritize the emotional wellbeing of our young people. Hope is a discipline is something a good friend of mine has often said, and you indicated that that's something we have to do. Moving from apathy to action is really an exercise in hope. And I really loved that. And the last one is that a multidisciplinary approach is more than just student-centered, it's community-centered, and it offers us opportunities to engage with each other better. 

So thank you so much, Olli-Pekka. This has been a fascinating conversation, much deeper than I was anticipating. Leaves me, I know, right? Chike, do you feel like you're having some existential questions right now?

Chike Aguh: No, I thank you very much for what you do, and I thank you for being with us today and sharing.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Yes. So thank you. We have just heard from Olli-Pekka Heinonen, who is the director general at International Baccalaureate. And my guest co-host is Chike Aguh, senior advisor for Project on Workforce at Harvard University and former chief innovation officer at the US Department of Labor. It has been a pleasure speaking with you both.

Olli-Pekka Heinonen: Thank you. I was obliged for giving the opportunity and really enjoyed the discussion.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: You're very welcome. To our audience, just make sure that you pick up the book "Commencement: The Beginning of a New Era in Higher Education" by Kate Colbert and Joe Sallustio with contributions by the wonderful Elvin Freitas. You'll find over a hundred college and university president interviews in that book. It's a great book study, a great read. Thanks for joining us today to all of our colleagues, friends and digital neighbors. You've just ed-uped.