882: Lifelong Career Readiness - with Dr. Michelle Cheang, Director, Catalyze Challenge

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Welcome back everybody. It's your time to EdUp on the EdUp Experience podcast where we make education your business. This is your special guest host, Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson, filling in today for the amazing, incredible, and world-famous Dr. Joe Sallustio. I serve as a trustee for San Jacinto College in Southeast Houston, and you can follow me on LinkedIn to see what else I'm up to. I'm thrilled to announce our co-host today. It is none other than Dr. Constance St. Germain, president at Capella University.

Dr. Constance St. Germain: Well, thanks. I think I must have done great on my podcast to be able to come back now as a co-host. I passed some kind of test. So I've been with Capella for about six years now. I've been president for about eight months. Prior to that, I was the provost here at the institution. I have over 20 years of experience in higher education. And before that, I was an attorney and in the US Army. So also a military veteran and I'm a proud mom of five children. So keeping very, very busy and all things moving forward in my life.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: I love to see people like us in the evolution of leadership and doing all the things and bringing your authentic self into the workspace and achieving all the dreams and making waves and ushering in a new way of thinking about what leadership can be. It is truly an honor to meet you. Thank you so much for being our co-host. We are going to introduce our guest today. Dr. Michelle Chang is the director at Catalyze, and we are going to get into exactly what Catalyze does. Dr. Michelle, if you don't mind if I call you Dr. Michelle, would you tell us who you are and what you do and why it matters? You have 30 minutes. Ready, set, go.

Dr. Michelle Chang: I think it's all part of me today. I'm excited to talk about the work and really the importance of career learning for young people and the way we prepare and we bridge student needs with student interests with industry needs and really think about the journey and the experience from the practitioner and the student and the community perspective that is key to the work. Once again, I am Michelle. I'm excited to be here with you all today. Really where I come from in terms of my background, I am a nonprofit practitioner and a higher ed practitioner as well. I've worked with multiple public schools in thinking about how do we redesign programs, curriculum to ensure that we are really thinking about careers in a more comprehensive way as we prepare young people starting in elementary school, middle school, high school and prepare them for that post-secondary pathway.

As the K-14 College Dean here in Los Angeles, I've worked around creating guided pathways for young people from high school to college, really in thinking about the exploration piece, student interests, aptitudes, and skills, as they're making really important decisions about their careers at a young age. With Catalyze, I joined Catalyze last year, so fairly new to this new world of philanthropy. Catalyze was established in 2021, and it's a collaborative fund. So what does that mean? Funders came together and said, we see a problem, we see an opportunity where we can invest our dollars in supporting that pathway, reimagining education, wraparound services for young people ages 11 to 22.

So we started with eight amazing funders and we've continued to grow the number of funders participating. And they've joined this pool fund to give out grants to grantees all over the United States to really invest dollars in innovative programming that can support young people as they travel, as they move throughout their journey, whether they're in school, out of school. We really believe that supporting all young people, especially historically underserved groups that have many times been marginalized intentionally, that have been pushed away from the quote-unquote traditional education system that have been underserved and under-resourced, it's important for us to really create that equitable play for all folks to really think about their own journey as they think about economic growth, economic opportunity.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: That is a lot. Dr. St. Germain, you want to jump in?

Dr. Constance St. Germain: Sure. So, Michelle, one of the things that I loved that you were just talking about is making that connection, right? Like between careers and young people's interests. And, you know, I know at least at Capella University, we are really focused on providing flexible adult education and we offer it in a competency-based model in two formats. So one that's more guided, another one that is more self-paced, which we call FlexPath. But how do you see in terms of those young people making connections with the careers, how do you see education playing a role in that and exposing them to what their options are?

Dr. Michelle Chang: Very good question. That is one of the key interests that we have, especially in our previous round that we just implemented, our round three of our, what we call the Catalyze Challenge. We just released dollars last month and one of our themes was around career exploration for young people. And many times, if you remember back when we were in high school, I mean, only a few years ago, I'm sure, we had to make decisions right away, right after high school, what are we going to study? And sometimes we did not have exposure to multiple careers or really what was out there, what was connected to the current workforce and current trends or future trends as well.

So when we think about career exploration, it is key to our work and preparing young people by arming them with information. They need information as it relates to what are the careers that are out there? What are the careers that maybe people do not talk about, but are exciting and really can unlock economic opportunity for young people? So when we think about that, think of the things happening in the school, right? Am I a middle school student, a high school student? How am I gaining exposure to these types of activities and opportunities?

It's something that we've seen has been really key to the work is employer partnerships, which is our theme too of our last round. Really thinking of how it is that schools, organizations, nonprofits are partnering with employer partners to ensure that there is that alignment. And we hear directly from those people in the field doing the work, right? So that can mean anything from a light touch of let me do some job shadowing or career fair, or maybe speakers to a very robust engagement where there are employers coming in and supporting with curriculum, right? Designing curriculum that is integrated within K-12 and thinking about that in a different way that's both on the technical side of skills, but also in the durable skills. What we need our young people to also leave high school with is those skills that are beyond the technical part.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: You said something that really kind of kicked me in the stomach. And it was the idea of, you said back when we were in high school, and again, I agree only a few years ago, it's nice to be young. You said we weren't exactly exposed to the potential careers. We didn't exactly get to explore careers. And, you know, as a woman thinking back what I would have liked to have known in high school about my potential in any particular career. I think a lot about that. I think a lot about an underexposure to STEM, for instance, right? An underexposure to sectors, understanding that careers operate within sectors and that there are sectors that have multiple entry points, right? Stackable credentials, that there are internship opportunities or apprenticeships, if you will.

And you're really hitting on something when you say middle schoolers, right? And getting them to start thinking about this. I've seen multiple models of this. I'm sure Constance, you have too, right? Multiple models of career exploration. Sometimes it's an assessment, right? And it tells you what your personality, what career your personality is best suited for. Sometimes it is guest speakers, like you said, right? Sometimes it is exposure through job shadowing. Logistically speaking, how does Catalyze do this work? How do you get into that space where the students are? Are you doing it virtually? Are you doing it in person? How big are you? Where are you located? Tell us about the logistics of what you do and how you connect with our young people.

Dr. Michelle Chang: So we've had three rounds of our challenge that has been really the engine for us to learn. So although our flagship initiative has been the challenge, our major opportunity is learning. Learning from the grantees that are on the ground doing the work directly with the young people, learning from each other, and then supporting learning to the field and from the field. That's really what we want to do. We want to see what's working, what's not working, how can we make improvements to ensure that all young people are receiving opportunities to help them as they're transitioning towards their different careers, right?

So in terms of our rounds, we are open to any organization that meets the eligibility criteria for our rounds. In our last round, really thinking of these two themes of career exploration and active employer partnerships, we opened it up to organizations all over the United States. And that told us we can do X, Y, and Z to reach X, Y, and Z metrics or outcomes or impact, right? And we wanted to be as open in terms of not being restrictive as to what we wanted to see because we know that it's the folks on the ground that have the expertise, the experience, and the connection to the community that they're working with.

So we're thinking of organizations. We have a diverse type of organization that we work with from nonprofits, charter schools, public schools, higher ed institutions, employer partnerships, right? So we really wanted to have folks that we knew could have impact on the ground in different ways, in the classroom, outside the classroom, a combination of our habits. So to answer your question is we do things virtually. Most of the work is face-to-face, in person, with the students directly. We have seen opportunities where many organizations are bringing in tools that use different modalities such as virtual or online, but then are still integrated with the face-to-face component. Because our young people, we need to give them extra TLC, especially post-pandemic and that burnout.

So I think we've seen a combination and it's about meeting the students where they're at and what they want to see. Just as you said, this podcast is fun. We want learning to be fun. And I think that's important to the work. And sometimes we forget as educators because we're so busy or our target has been, you know, our measures, our metrics that we need to meet, but let's not forget about the student experience because that's what it's for.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Right, right. Engagement is important. Dr. St. Germain, did you have anything?

Dr. Constance St. Germain: No, I was just going to follow up on something that Michelle had said earlier that I wanted to dive a little bit more into. So, you know, we have a lot of employer partners that we work with, over 800, in extending access to employees, right, to our programs and doing that. But as you're thinking about those middle schoolers and those younger children in that K through 12 system, you know, we work really hard by partnering with, we have advisory boards, we have experts in the various disciplines and programs that we offer who come in and provide, you know, us advice about what's going on and new developments in their field. How do you, when you're looking at the K through 12 space as an educator, like, what changes do you think actually need to be implemented to really be able to provide the students there a readiness to be able to jump into the workforce and be able to really keep pace with the change? And I'm thinking about specifically like AI, right? Those kinds of things. So I'd just love to kind of hear your thoughts around how you think our K through 12 education system needs to be, could be improved.

Dr. Michelle Chang: That is a million-dollar question in terms of opportunities. I would say we're trending in the right direction, but it's still not as fast as we would want, right? In terms of the outcomes that we see as it relates to students in those careers and being successful quickly within those careers, right? So what we see is definitely the integration of additional programming and tools like AI. And it's about really, just as we're trying to expose our students to careers, it's also the exposure of what does AI look like in order to really streamline the workload for folks, right? To streamline the work for our teachers, to support some of the project-based learning happening in the classroom.

For example, we are working, one of our new grantees is the Reinvention Lab from Teach for America, and they are piloting a program around project-based learning using AI as a supplement, as a tool to support some of the students, what we would call micro-apprenticeships in the summer. That's great. How are we finding innovative ways to integrate more tools, knowing that time is limited and resources are limited. So really thinking about what are those projects and designs that are really working.

Something else we've seen is partnerships. Partnerships have been really key to a lot of the success of our grantees. Primarily they're partnering with K-12 schools that maybe cannot operate the programs themselves fully. So they partner with nonprofit organizations or other intermediaries to support some of the work. So for example, the school might do some of the durable skills like social-emotional learning, critical thinking, leadership development, the nonprofit might partner with a community college to bring in the technical skills with the wraparound support services.

So really understanding that it's not a siloed strategy, but really thinking of how do all these stakeholders, how do all these partners across multiple spaces come together to really create a robust and holistic program or experience for young people and always bringing in families, educators, and the community to make sure that folks really understand the goal that we have. And it's also about thinking about the end goal, right? Lifelong learning is important, continuous improvement is that cycle. It's not really a linear progression and we're always continuing learning, but it's also about making sure that young people have the opportunities and that families and the community understand that process, including employers, how they can connect at younger levels.

Because as you know, as a president, Dr. St. Germain, many times the employers come in at the college level, hire and thinking about, okay, we have a talent pool issue or challenge. How can we help? How can we bridge that gap? But imagine if they start that sooner for our young people, right? By the time they come to you, they already have the foundational skills and competencies to expedite the progression to that career.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Absolutely. That's wonderful. I wanted to observe that you said something so powerful that I hope people will center when they think about career development for young people and it is family. I think community colleges and universities are really starting to tap into the idea that there is a generational change in parenting. And whereas I was a first-generation student and didn't have any support in terms of how to get enrolled and how to do things, I had my family's support, but because of limited resources and having to work all the time, I didn't have their interest. Meaning they couldn't pay attention to what I was doing and weigh in one way or another. A lot of it was me figuring it out myself.

I have noticed generationally as a former higher ed professional and now as a trustee that our families, even for first-generation students, and tell me if this is true for you, Dr. St. Germain, our families are interested. They are engaging in the higher ed and career development efforts of their young people because I think the pandemic taught us all that your livelihood should also be a pleasant experience and not just something that you do to earn money, to pay money, to earn money, to pay money, right? And so I really appreciate that you focus on family.

And I do want to let Dr. St. Germain weigh in, but I also wanted to ask, is this something that you're getting good feedback on and what kind of feedback do you get from participants and the organizations? I'm sure that you're observing them and assessing them formally, but even if you have some anecdotal feedback on what the student and family experience has been in the Catalyze Challenge, I would love to hear it. But I'm going to toss it to Dr. St. Germain first and then you can answer my question if you don't mind.

Dr. Constance St. Germain: No, I appreciate that. I think it's interesting, at least in terms of how generations are different generations. So I think millennials are much more hands-on parenting as opposed to Gen Xers who are raised by boomers. And that many of us, like you mentioned, had to figure it out ourselves. But it's also, on the other hand, we're also seeing that sometimes parents are too involved, especially in the higher education space, right? And perhaps need to understand that their child at some point needs to step out and learn on their own and do that. So it's a fine line. But I do think bringing families in and at least having them understand that everybody's rowing in the same direction, that ultimately everybody wants the same thing, which is for their offspring to be successful in whatever path that they choose. And that's how we need to work together as a team to make sure that happens.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Yes. Yes. Dr. Chang, what do you think about the feedback that you're getting from your participants?

Dr. Michelle Chang: I would love to talk about that both from the Catalyze perspective and my personal experience in working with schools in higher ed. So we've heard that bringing in the parents and the families and guardians is helpful in terms of really getting to get that commitment from our young people, especially the younger ages, right? So informing them of the overall project program is important, whether it's through the onboarding and intake and orientation. And then of course,being mindful of the diverse populations that we work with. So if we need to translate material, have things that are -

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: That's a great point.

Dr. Michelle Chang: So we've seen a lot of Spanish and English at minimum in terms of some of that material for our families and that has been helpful. But I agree with, I think the term is helicopter parenting is what I heard. So having that balance, right, of making sure that families are informed throughout the journey, but also giving the student that empowerment and that agency to be able to do things individually, but knowing that they have that support and that social capital to help them navigate the journey, right? So I think it's that combination.

I know when I was a dean and working with schools and doing dual enrollment, it was really important that the parents understood the importance and the commitment and the expectation, but also that the student was learning on their own in the classroom, right? But if they need additional support that we were there. A strategy that I used, which was really great, was having almost like a path for parents too, so they could learn as the student was learning and engaging with higher ed simultaneously. And then the family felt like this was truly a community college for me and my family.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: What is it about this work that drew you, Dr. Chang? Because I looked at your profile on LinkedIn and everyone knows this is where we live. So make sure that you're plugged in, create your account, get connected. We have a vibrant higher ed community on LinkedIn. But I looked at your background and so you do have that higher education experience formally as a leader, right? What drew you to this work? Nonprofit spaces is a different animal. It has its own requirements. And then beyond that, development work and that - folks in the room who don't know exactly what development is, it's the fundraising side of things, right? And that requires a very specific skillset and a very unique tenacity. I just love to watch development people work. What drew you? What is it about Catalyze that you think is so phenomenal that you would jump in with both feet on changing the game of workforce development with our young people?

Dr. Michelle Chang: I would say, you know, nearly a decade ago, when I started working here in LA and I was operating youth centers, I had three youth centers across Los Angeles, really working with opportunity youth, young people that were 16-24 pushed out of the education system, not really thinking of, or not understanding what to do in terms of their next step to reengage with education or their career. And getting to know the young people that we were working with over 2000 a year that we were serving was really eye-opening. So being on the ground, understanding the barriers, the struggles for our young people really inspires me to create something different and think outside the box.

That is why I joined higher ed in my trajectory was because I felt that the education system had a responsibility to do better, to serve our young people, especially those that, you know, could not go back to a traditional high school. Community colleges for me were the system that could support our young people and their families. So to the integration of the workforce development piece that I've done for a very long time, you know, working in education, both in K-12 public schools and in higher ed, and really seeing the opportunity that we have to really, really make a difference for our young people, especially our black and brown students, is inspiring for me. And that is what motivates me.

So when I learned about Catalyze, I'm not a traditional fundraiser, but I believe that because I've been on the ground, because I've been a practitioner, I can really talk about the work authentically to raise those dollars for the right reasons. So that is why I'm here. I'm excited. I want to continue working with organizations and partners to continue to do this work and to really create change within our space and to really unlock the potential for our young people because economic growth and economic opportunity is important to our communities, but also having a good career that is fun and exciting and that it's fulfilling and rewarding is just as important.

You know, some of the, our older generations, we've been really thinking about or taught to work hard, work hard, work hard. It's great, right? But also what's that balance? Work hard, enjoy life, have a great career that's fulfilling, you know, because we are at work a lot of the time, right? So making sure that that's fulfilling, it's also that it's something that someone is interested in and it's aligned to their skills, interests and aptitudes so they can enjoy their life and also think about it in a way that it's not linear. Yes, there's multiple sectors, but there's those skills that can be transitioned and transferred across multiple sectors and across multiple careers. And that's really a different perspective that I want our young people to know that they have the power to choose their own journey and make it a diverse and rewarding one.

Dr. Constance St. Germain: So let me ask you, when you bring in and you're looking at this exposure to the different jobs, are there any jobs that have surprised you, like that are coming in or obviously, you know, we say that we're preparing the younger generation, right, for jobs that don't even exist yet? How do you approach that or what surprised you?

Dr. Michelle Chang: There was a lot of, in our last round, we received over 350 applications, which was very unexpected, we had received maybe like 200 at the beginning. So that was really increased and there was a lot of focus on specific sectors. The ones that we saw a lot of was around technology, of course, but some of the ones that were, I don't know if the word is surprising, but unique and different was around really thinking of social media and podcasting journalism in a way to really build career exposure, connections across employers and young people and in the classroom. So I think those were really interesting. We also saw a lot of AI as tools to support young people. That was a big one that we saw. Other than that, like the ones that were really prevalent were around healthcare and really looking at specific gaps in the local economy. That was really, I think, important to the work. I think folks are really exploring what's happening in my backyard and what solution do I have now so I can support that now.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: That was such a good question. I was thinking about that. I know that what we are hearing as trustees in community colleges is that, as trustees, we are hearing about what are the up and coming careers, right? What are the sectors where we're seeing development and we are seeing like biomedical is a big one, biotech is a big one. And then like, I love what you said about like regionally, that's so important to tap into economic growth within the region, which is why our higher ed institutions are so important is because we can actually make big waves and big changes in our own backyard and promote that economic growth.

I want to say that based on your last answer, Dr. Chang, your enthusiasm for this work and your heart for the work really came through. It makes sense that Catalyze chose you. I think that you offer a lot of heart-centered focus on this work and that your intention is really to promote the public good. I think that's our charge in education, but sometimes it's not as clear at the surface as it seems to be for you. And I think that you're a model for leadership in this space. I really was moved by what you said. And it made me so happy to know that you're in this space doing this work and that you're the face of it too. Because your enthusiasm is just so clear. I'm sure you'd agree Dr. St. Germain, just her heart's in this work.

We're gonna transition a little bit. So is there anything about yourself, your work, or Catalyze that you feel like we should know that we haven't discussed before and tell people how they can get connected to the work you said repeatedly that you're looking to partner with more institutions, how would our listeners connect to that effort?

Dr. Michelle Chang: Yep. So we are hoping to release our next round of our Catalyze Challenge in the summer. So please, please go visit our website, catalyzechallenge.org. Follow us on LinkedIn as well to learn and to get updates and information for our next challenge. We are currently in the middle of our strategy for not only round four, but the future of Catalyze. What is really great and innovative of this pooled fund is that we want to pivot, make changes as the field is making changes, as we see the needs. So we really want to learn from organizations that are not only our grantees, but the overall field to continue making those differences. So round four coming up in the summer, if all goes well, that is the plan. So please, please follow us and learn more from our work.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Very good. Yeah, I'm looking at your past winners from the last round. This was, looks like a little press release that went out on February 29th. And I love to see like just the diversity in organizations such as Chicago Scholars Fund, Educate Texas, the Hidden Genius project. I love that. National Indian Education Association Project Success. This is really exciting and great. I encourage our listeners to get plugged in. I just went straight to the website and I'm enthusiastic about this and I'm hoping that you see a lot more traffic generated so that we can increase opportunity for our young people in this career exploration space. Dr. St. Germain, did you have any last questions that you wanted to ask before we move to our final question?

Dr. Constance St. Germain: I guess the only thing I would ask, I'd love to get Michelle's take on is how do you think employers can work with schools to really help bridge that workforce skills gap that we're seeing and what would you recommend?

Dr. Michelle Chang: Love that question. I think that has been one of the challenges we are really addressing with Catalyze is how do we change behavior from the employer perspective, right? I think we really believe that it's those partnerships in terms of the schools getting to know what are the employers looking for? What are those skills that they see gaps in when folks are either graduating high school or graduating whatever post-secondary program they're in? What are some of the gaps they still see? Right? So they can incorporate that within their own curriculum or within their own programs at the schools.

Also opening your doors, opening your doors and maybe if you're a biotech lab, can we have our students have their bio class in your offices? Right?

Dr. Constance St. Germain: So that's a great idea.

Dr. Michelle Chang: You know, opening your doors and what are your resources? Does that mean that maybe you can provide mentorship opportunities for students? Can you provide pre-apprenticeships, apprenticeship programs? And also, let's be honest, do you have funds that you can also provide for schools to really create more robust programs? That means field trips, curriculum, teaching aids to really support the work and bring in more technical training at the schools.

Dr. Constance St. Germain: All great ideas. Love it.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Very good. That's exciting. And you know, I have to say when it comes to like things like internships, well, two things. Yes, employers, if you don't have education as one of your values, you're missing an opportunity. It needs to be embedded in your strategic plan. How do we fit into the education space? How do we partner with them? How do we create a future of collaboration? The other part of it is the idea of promoting things properly to the right audiences and making sure that the messaging on what your effort is supposed to be and what your input could be. That's key. And I think you're illuminating an opportunity for organizations to do that.

I heard a local chancellor over here, Lone Star Community College, his name is Dr. - He's actually is an attorney, so counselor by trade, but Mario Castillo. And he posted on his LinkedIn, I encourage you to see it. He said as a president or as a chancellor, please do not come at him with internship offers if they're not going to be paid internships, because we are not in the business of having our students who are trying to get connected to the workforce work for free.

Dr. Constance St. Germain: Right.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: I, you should see the feedback that he got and the affirmation. And just think about the student loan debt, right? Like, so of course students want to have an internship where they're paid. Every little bit helps.

Dr. Michelle Chang: Yes, absolutely. And students have to make that difficult decision of, I have an unpaid internship in a sector I love and I'm passionate about, or do I have a job that maybe I'm not making as much money, but I need to just bring income to my family and ensure that there's that support there. So we do not want to have students make those decisions when we have the opportunity from the employer side to really support our young people doing the work. And they're doing high quality work because they are receiving amazing training at their middle school and high school.

So I think it goes back to with your question, Dr. St. Germain is also employers recognizing the skills and competencies that students are learning and earning, even if it's not through a quote unquote traditional degree, right? So making sure that those milestones or as students are progressing and stacking those competencies that they're also acknowledged, that's important as well.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Very good. So I'm not going to ask what you think the future of higher ed is. That's the question we typically ask our higher ed guests. I want to ask a more relevant question to this space. What do you think the future of workforce development is for our young people?

Dr. Michelle Chang: I think as we started the podcast, Dr. St. Germain mentioned about your own programs that you have within your college and thinking about diverse options that meet the students where they're at and what they need. So what does that mean? Does that mean that when we think about workforce development, we have multiple ways of gaining those skills, gaining those credentials, certificates or degrees that will lead to those jobs? It's no longer that traditional, need to do, this is your path and this is the only path to a good career, but these are the multiple ways that you can get there. And really being valued by K-12, post-secondary institutions, other providers, as well as our employers and industry, recognizing that.

And also recognizing that workforce development does not start your junior year, senior year in high school or your first year in that post-secondary opportunity, but it starts so young because we can embed career skills throughout a student's experience, even as we're thinking of kindergartners, right? And you're talking about collaboration and sharing and that are important in the work field, right? So it's really about that, like thinking about it in a different perspective where it's not just black and white and it's not just linear, but really a cycle where young people are continuously learning about themselves, learning about their skills and aptitudes, gaining that awareness, that efficacy, that agency, and those career readiness skills that are transferable across multiple sectors.

Dr. Constance St. Germain: Well, you said something really great in the beginning, too. It's about lifelong learning, right? So you should start from kindergarten, and it should go up until you retire. Like, you should keep learning your entire life. Learning never stops. And so I think that is where, especially universities and colleges can help employers come back in and upskill their workers and build upon all the skills that they learned starting in kindergarten, right? It never ends, learning never ends.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Yes, you're absolutely right. I wrote this down in a chapter that I'm working on for adult basic education book in that - not mine, someone else's, but imagine if there was one on ramp to the freeway.

Dr. Constance St. Germain: Imagine if there was just one. That would be a nightmare.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Right. Exactly. And why do we do that? Yeah, we have to provide all the on ramps possible, all of them possible that we can for our young people and at different stages at different ages and different venues and opportunities. So it's my belief and I'm sure Dr. St. Germain would agree with me that Dr. Michelle Chang, Director of Catalyze is going to change the world of workforce development. It has been such a pleasure to have you on the show today. Dr. Constance St. Germain, President of Capella University. I look forward to hearing you host the show in the very near future. And I would be happy to come on as your co-host.

Dr. Constance St. Germain: You did an excellent job. That'd be fun. We'd have a good time.

Dr. Michelle Cantu-Wilson: Folks, you have just experienced another outstanding and higher ed and workforce development changing episode of the EdUp Experience podcast. It has been a real pleasure today to be in community with these outstanding leaders, Dr. Constance St. Germain, president Capella University again, and Dr. Michelle Chang, director at Catalyze. Be sure to look up Catalyze and be sure to share on your network the good work that's being done in this space. As always, follow, share and leave your reviews on the EdUp Experience podcast. And as we like to say here, as we close at the EdUp Experience, ladies and gentlemen, and everyone else, you have just EdUp'd.