921: LIVE From the 2024 ⁠Career Education Convention⁠ - with Michael Sangster, CEO, National Association of Career Colleges, & Host, EdUp Canada⁠⁠⁠

Joe Sallustio: Welcome back to the EdUp Experience podcast, where we make education your business. We're on the final day of the education convention here at the CQ group advocacy group for career colleges. I'm joined by my guest co-host Douglas Carlson, head of partnerships at Lead Squared. Douglas and I recorded 13 podcasts yesterday, which is a new record for me.

Our guest today is Michael Sangster, Chief Executive Officer for the National Association of Career Colleges. 

Michael, tell us about the National Association of Career Colleges.

Michael Sangster: We represent 580 career colleges across Canada that are training the workforce our country needs. I love representing the organization and being around what they do. When you go to a graduation ceremony, you immediately understand why we're passionate about it. Watching a family come together to celebrate someone graduating, maybe a 39 or 40-year-old individual graduating from post-secondary education for the first time in their career or family - it's always incredible to watch.

We're partnering with CQ, hosting a North American education conference every two years and leadership summits every year starting next year again. So I'm just happy to be here taking it all in.

Joe: I had an amazing time at the joint conference last year in Montreal. It was really fun to compare and contrast the different opportunities and challenges we share across borders, and to meet some interesting colleagues and share best practices.

Michael, can you elaborate on some of the things going on, perhaps the legislation that recently passed in Canada?

Michael: We're excited about the partnership and looking forward to Vegas next year. We're also looking forward to hearing from Vice President Pence later this morning.

Our sector has gone through a big international student debate about whether our international students should be coming to our institutions in Canada. We've worked through that now and are moving forward to find the right balance. Canada had allowed too many students in, which started to strain some communities. We're working with the government to find pathways forward. Although we're not heavily focused on international students, we believe it will help meet our workforce needs as we train international students alongside our domestic students, who make up the vast majority in our institutions.

Joe: Is the feeling the same in Canada regarding divisiveness in the sector? Do you have a group of politicians who are not supportive of career colleges? Is there a ton of regulations?

Michael: It's the same problem. There's often a misconception - they don't understand who we are. Once we get through that and they understand the workers we're training in healthcare, cybersecurity, and logistics, they come around slowly. But there's resistance to our sector in Canada as well.

Joe: Do you have the same issues with finding great people? These employers can't find individuals who can perform in these careers.

Michael: We've got the same problem as the United States - just not enough workers to fill the roles. We rely on immigration to bring in the workforce we need. There's a statistic I like: we've gone from having seven workers for every retiree to, by the end of this decade, having two workers for every retiree. That doesn't work and can't be sustained.

Joe: You're also a podcaster, correct?

Michael: Yes, we launched the EdUp Canada podcast last year. We're about to put out our 30th episode next week. It's a great chance to have deeper conversations on issues and let people talk about what they do. We've had national broadcasters, politicians, college owners, students - it's really fun to get into more in-depth conversations with them.

Joe: Have you had any guests that have given you insights allowing you to take action on some things?

Michael: Absolutely. We had an interesting session with one of our colleges from Toronto. Hearing the way they're teaching and working together gave me a better understanding of the holistic approach from recruitment all the way through to career fairs for job placement. It changed my perspective on the whole process. It's not just about getting students in, getting them out, and getting money - which is an accusation often made about our colleges. But watching the whole process and meeting with career professionals who are there to place people in jobs, and realizing employers are already waiting because they're so desperately looking for workers now - it's eye-opening.

Joe: What professions are in super high demand and pulling students into the sector?

Michael: Our colleges have done an amazing job in healthcare over the COVID pandemic and since, training support workers and healthcare aides - those crucial workers that keep the system functioning. That's been a huge, incredibly successful project for us, and we've been widely recognized for it. Cyber IT jobs are also hot. We don't represent many trucking or heavy equipment colleges, but that's a huge issue as well. I think the last number I heard was that we're looking for 75,000 truck drivers in Canada.

Joe: How is affordability? Is it a huge concern at institutions? Can you talk about issues like debt load, repayment, borrower defense to repayment, and loan forgiveness? Are you seeing the same in Canada?

Michael: Our student aid system is quite different. In every province, there are student aid systems that provide loans and opportunities. We've seen many corporations and governments actually funding education in some cases, like for support workers and healthcare aides where the government has funded their tuition and placement due to high demand. I think we'll see more of that targeted government approach to training.

We still have the same challenges around financial aid and other issues, but we don't face the same political problems that Jason Altmeyer, the CEO of CQ, deals with every day, like having to file lawsuits. It's pretty intense what they have to go through. We are an advocacy organization as well, but I don't feel like we face as much as they do.

Joe: You mentioned that in some instances, the government is funding education. Are they funding it for career schools?

Michael: Yes, they are. The support workers program is a perfect example. In many provinces across the country, they directly fund all of the students' tuition, books, and even provide a stipend for work.

Joe: Is it province-specific?

Michael: Yes, each province funds it at different levels. We saw this change during COVID, where they started directly funding the work. We're hoping to see more of that targeted funding going forward.

Joe: But they're directly funding the students, not the institutions, and then the students pick where they go?

Michael: Correct, and it makes sense, especially for those with desperate needs. You take someone who's a single mom, 38 years old, and suddenly you fund their education - they have a chance to get it done. Some provinces were even funding work placements.

Joe: What are the biggest constituencies you have? Are there any really unique schools that stand out?

Michael: We're doing a lot of work in cyber IT, healthcare, and trades. As for unique ones, where I live in Ottawa, there's the Cordon Bleu Institute, one of the best culinary schools. The Toronto Film School is another - people don't realize it's a career college. We've got a college in Alberta that trains environmental trail guides, and InfoFit, which trains certified professional personal trainers to work in gyms.

Joe: You mentioned you're doing a lot of work with veterans now too?

Michael: Yes, the government is very generous in funding veterans' training when they leave service. As soon as they leave, they can learn from a university, career college, or community college. It's pretty rewarding to watch that work happen.

Joe: Is it similar to the U.S. concept around Canadian veterans?

Michael: It's direct funding. They just pick the program they want to take, bring the college information to the government, and the government funds it. As long as it's a certified institution, there are no percentages - they're fully funded. They've fought for our nation, and in many cases for both our countries, so it's very appropriate they get this benefit.

Joe: Where is the National Association of Career Colleges based?

Michael: We're virtual. I took over three years ago, just before COVID, and we didn't end up sitting on a lease the whole pandemic, which was quite lucky. My team has people in Ottawa, Winnipeg, and Red Deer, Alberta. Our board comes from all over the country.

Joe: Can you give us a quick idea of how large the organization is?

Michael: We have about 15 employees, including contractors, and some consultants beyond that. It's a small but mighty organization. We proctor exams for our colleges, with a team that watches the exams to ensure academic integrity levels are maintained.

Joe: What else do you want to plug while you're here?

Michael: We have our conference coming up in the fall. We recently had Peter Mansbridge from the CBC as a guest - he's going to be one of our keynote speakers, which should be quite interesting. We do things a little differently too. On Thursday night, we've brought in Sean McCann, who was in a great Canadian band called Great Big Sea, for a concert. We like to keep everybody together and have a big party.

The event will be November 6-8 in Toronto. All of our regulators are coming out from across the country, and we'll have some politicians there. We're just starting to release more of the session names soon.

Joe: And then next year, Vegas?

Michael: Yes, next year, Vegas.

Joe: And of course, everyone should be tuning in to the EdUp Canada podcast hosted by none other than Michael Sangster.

Michael: Well, I have to thank you and our friend Joseph Linhart who put this together. We're having a blast doing it, but it's a lot of work.

Joe: For anybody who thinks podcasting is easy, it's just not. You have to focus on the quality of the conversations and keep having them because they're worthwhile.

Thank you, Michael Sangster, CEO of the National Association of Career Colleges and host of the EdUp Canada podcast. It's always an honor to have you on.

Michael: Great to see you guys. Looking forward to the next day. It should be a good one.

Joe: Ladies and gentlemen, you've just EdUpped.