881: EdUp Tribal Colleges & Universities (TCUs) Mini Series - with Lori Sherman, ⁠President, ⁠Keweenaw Bay Ojibwa Community College⁠, & ⁠Christopher Caldwell⁠, President, ⁠College of Menominee Nation

Dr. Erica Moore: Welcome back everyone. It's your time to Ed Up on the Ed Up Experience podcast where we make education your business. I am Dr. Erica Moore and I'm the host of this special mini-series on Ed Up, highlighting tribal colleges and universities and their innovative leaders. With me today, I have Amber Morseau and I will bring her in to introduce herself and she will bring in our amazing guests. I'm going to hand it off to you, Amber.

Amber Morseau: Amber Morseau indizhinikaaz. My name is Amber Morseau. Thank you, Dr. Moore for having me again on this edition of Ed Up. Today we have with us two of our tribal college presidents. We have President Chris Caldwell from College of the Menominee Nation. And we also have President Lori Sherman from Keweenaw Bay Ojibwe Community College. I'm going to pass it over to our two tribal college presidents to have them share a little bit about themselves with you all. Miigwech, President Caldwell.

Christopher Caldwell: Posoh mawaniwiak. Hello, everyone. My name is Chris Caldwell. My Menominee name is Ma'ki'i Anakwut. It means red cloud or the clouds are red. I've been the president here at the College of Menominee Nation since February 2020 when I started as interim and became full-time president a year later. I'm enrolled in the Menominee Tribe, grew up here all my life. Good to be here. Thank you for the space.

Lori Sherman: My English name is Lori Sherman. My traditional name is Oshawaan'Gwan Kwe. I was born and raised on a reservation called Zeba, which is part of the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community. I'm also a member of the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community. I have been in this position, it'll be six years in June. So I too was born and raised here. I did work for a couple of state universities and worked in some natural resources fields, but I'm where I belong right now. I'm very happy.

Amber Morseau: Thank you both for introducing yourselves. I'm so glad that you're here with us. I like to always just start by asking the presidents to talk to us about what they're most proud of at their campuses, with their students, with their faculty. So I'm going to start this time with President Sherman. If you wanted to just tell us a little bit about your campus and what you're most proud of.

Lori Sherman: There's a lot of things that I'm very proud of with our campus. I would say our rock stars here though are our students. What they've been able to achieve while they're here at KBOCC, whether it be an associate degree or a certificate or just taking some classes. I see them succeeding. I see them employed afterwards or even opening their own businesses. It's just wonderful to see all that. The opportunities that they've had, the scholarships they received, the acknowledgements, the awards and just their perseverance is stunning and it's incredible. So I'm very, very proud of our students.

Our faculty - I'm very proud of them as well. They support our students in a holistic way and they just do so much work with our students, helping them succeed. And I'm very proud of our faculty for all that they do for our students. 

We couldn't be a tribal college without our staff as well. Our facilities are just as important as our faculty. Without staff handling all that paperwork and handling the financial aid and everything that goes along with that, student services, we wouldn't be able to succeed. So we all need each other. I'm really happy with our staff that are dedicated to this mission of KBOCC and tribal colleges.

Amber Morseau: Beautiful. I do think that cyclical way of being, the holistic way of being, remembering that it's all of us that are supporting our students. I'm appreciative that you recognized all of your staff and faculty. President Caldwell, what are you most proud of?

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah, well, first of all, I would definitely agree with everything that President Sherman just talked about. The people make the institution and definitely we are here to serve our students, students that are starting out on their academic journey, restarting their journey, different life stories that brought them to where they are today. I know it's all important for their journey and so for us as a college faculty and staff, myself or executive leadership, all of those that are a part of helping to build the institution to support those journeys - it's just so much effort, work, passion that goes into that that it's hard to say one thing or the other. But all of us together, people in place doing the work that we've been assigned by the Menominee people who have chartered us.

I think of our institution, our campus, as I go to other places and hear land acknowledgement statements, and I just think we are a living representation of land acknowledgement of the Menominee people and by extension, other tribal nations and other community students that come to learn with us. That really does, when I come into work in the morning, I feel that sense of pride driving onto campus to be a part of this story, having this place that we come to. 

And for those that don't know, College of Menominee Nation, we are situated on the southern border of the Menominee Reservation. The world-renowned Menominee Forest is our background. And Keshena, Wisconsin, that's where we're located is in the northeastern portion of the state of Wisconsin. We're in the Great Lakes region, right outside of Green Bay, Wisconsin. So that's where we're situated. 

And I always think about our college just like our sister TCUs that we're part of a contemporary higher education movement based on knowledge systems that are thousands of years old. And so we're just figuring out how to advance that knowledge, but also how to help our communities create new knowledge so that our students, our graduates can help to continue that story. So, so much to be proud of there.

You get into the administrative side, we just completed our reaffirmation for accreditation last year.

Amber Morseau: Exciting.

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah, so we have our next one in 2032, which is so futuristic to think about those numbers. But I think we're in a good place there. We're starting - we celebrated our 30th anniversary last year as an institution. CMN's been here for 30 years, lot of celebrating over the year, ranging from our charter week all the way to our self-determination and sovereignty week, where we actually hosted First Lady Jill Biden and Secretary Deb Haaland, who came to visit our campus. And so we're really proud to show off our work on sustainability and all of that at that time. There's just so much to talk about. I'll stop there.

Dr. Erica Moore: Before I go on to something that you had stated, I will just say, funny, Amber has been asked to do land acknowledgments before and has said, "I don't need to acknowledge myself. That's for you to do."

Of course, she's joking when she says that, but I do find it interesting. They often ask us to do the land acknowledgments for them. And I just, I love her responses to it. So I thought I would share.

Amber Morseau: But I know who I am. I know who I am. Yeah. That's exactly what I say. Like I'm, I'm here. I'm already acknowledging the land. Like it's y'all that need to do that. Do that very important work. But, you know, I always think being able to reach out and ask, you know, folks that have that relationship with the land, right? Like we as Indigenous people have a very distinct relationship with where we come from in our homelands. So, you know, happy to provide insight, but, you know, you got to let them know how it is. You got to let them know who you are. We already know who each other are. We are relatives with this place. So, you know, every day that we wake up and we offer tobacco to creator and our prayers in those morning and those afternoon times and during those feasts. You know, we acknowledge one another as living being relatives of the land.

Dr. Erica Moore: Absolutely. That goes back to something you were mentioning, President Caldwell, when you talked about all the amazing things, but then figuring a way sort of, you know, how to integrate the culture into, you know, the contemporary education system, where some - I'm paraphrasing what you were saying, but always being innovative in how you're doing that. How does that play into what TCUs experience as challenges or obstacles? Do you feel that your relationship with your campus as a president and those challenges and obstacles look different than a non-tribal institution? And this is for both of you, President Sherman as well. Do those challenges, obstacles look different for you and what are some of those challenges?

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah, most definitely. There's a couple pieces in there that I think about, both in terms of how do we meet our responsibility for working from that Menominee knowledge system, but in a way that expresses the value of Natanawemakonok, all my relations, the way we say that in the Menominee language. And that's understanding that, you know, a lot of tribal nations, Indigenous peoples have this understanding of all my relations extends beyond just our immediate family to our communities, to those we come into contact with the broader scale of human relationships, but then also non-human, the land, the place that we're a part of, all of those things are considerations. 

And so how do we build that into, you know, like business administration or accounting or biology, some of those Western-based sciences that are important to understanding how to develop solutions to the issues we're faced with. So there's that side of it navigating that as a tribal institution. 

And then the other side is even, I don't know if this is funny or not, but convincing our own communities oftentimes that we are held to the same standard that mainstream academic institutions are held to, like our accreditation. Higher Learning Commission accredits across a broad region in the United States, University of Wisconsin-Madison, the premier research institution here in the state, the land grant, we're held to the same standards, but we don't operate from the same financial footing or resource or different support like that.

You know, we go about doing our work and it's almost like Indigenous students in the mainstream institution where you're constantly having to remind people of that history and that difference that we work within. So I think we're in dual areas institutionally as well as individually in our roles. So that's kind of a tough task at times, but for the most part, our communities understand who we are. Maybe not so much the technical side of things, but they understand the impact we're making in our communities. I find working to share and help people understand in our communities is a lot more fulfilling often than in mainstream society trying to get them to understand our positioning.

Dr. Erica Moore: A follow up to that and when President Sherman, when you respond, maybe you can take this into consideration as well. I agree that there is some sort of education or discussion that has to happen with our own communities and often there are many gray areas, as you mentioned, that you need to continuously explain. Where do you think that comes from? Where do you think that lies? Is that within the historical context of mistrust? Is it, you know, just change in general? Where do you think that belief comes from, from the community members or that need to constantly explain?

Christopher Caldwell: Research and how it was used against Indigenous peoples and education, I would just say, is a quick response where we're having to rebuild those relationships with research and education and tribal communities at times.

Lori Sherman: I would agree with what President Caldwell just said. And our community engagement and empowerment, our colleges are very deeply rooted in our local communities. And we serve as kind of a hub for all engagement and empowerment. And I can envision, and this is what we are doing, TCUs as even being stronger catalysts for positive change within our communities. It could be economic development, promoting health and wellness initiatives, and also providing leadership and training. 

I do want to talk a little bit to touch on our cultural preservation and revitalization. TCUs play a crucial role in preserving and revitalizing Native American languages, our traditions and our cultures. I think we could emphasize strengthening our TCU programs that are focused on our indigenous languages and our cultural studies and our TEK traditional ecological knowledge and ensure that our future generations have those opportunities to learn about and engage with our cultural heritage.

Dr. Erica Moore: I agree with that. I think in summary, I think it's really important just for the audience to understand that, right? Because when I had just been a plenary speaker at a recent event, they kept asking, well, how do we recruit your students to come to our campuses? They don't want to leave their homes or they don't want to come to our institutions or they don't trust us. And I want people to understand that like that doesn't, like we didn't just wake up, mistrustful of everyone, right? There was like a history that led us to this space where we're at and that you as president, as President Caldwell pointed out, you're trying to educate your people, but also heal them from most of that trauma, right? So you're healing through education. And then with that comes a lot of those valid feelings. So I just wanted to make sure that that was explained well to the audience. So thank you for bringing that up, but I'm going to pass off to Amber. She...

Are you raising your hand President Sherman?

Lori Sherman: I would like to talk about the historical trauma. You know, many of our, I think all of our tribal communities, we are continuing to grapple with this intergenerational effects of this historical trauma, including the forced assimilation, the displacement and continued discrimination. And I really think that as a part of this, we need to address the mental health and emotional needs of not only our students and staff that are affected by this trauma, but definitely our faculty as well. Because they're working every day with these students that may be dealing with some of this trauma. So I just think it's very critical to create a supportive and a learning safe environment for all involved in our TCUs.

Christopher Caldwell: To kind of follow that line there, I really appreciate what President Sherman said because it reminded me of, you know, sometimes we're working so fast and on so many things we don't pause to reflect as an institution. In my presidency, many of my current colleagues, TCU presidents started during the pandemic, a global pandemic and my whole first year of being an interim president was seeing my colleagues on a zoom screen every other month or so. There that relationality was there was a prevention there, but even more locally. I was three weeks in as interim and I was looking out the window on the parking lot to empty, an empty parking lot because the closures across the communities and all of a sudden we were dealing with the passing, people walking on from the pandemic, from COVID, from the increased opioid epidemic in our community. 

When you hear the ambulance go by campus because it goes from the community to the hospital in Shawano, you would hear the ambulance maybe three times a day, certain weeks. It got to the point where people said, there's a bad batch in the community. And that impacted our institution because there's so many relationships, people from the community work here. And family members were passing, students were passing, faculty, staff, and after a while, one would hit and we'd gather around and kind of deal with it, help each other deal with it, and all of a sudden another. And even before you could catch your breath from first few, they just kept coming in. And that was hard to rest. How do I deal with that personally in my own family? But then how do I deal with it here as leading our institution? 

But I think out of that and the historical trauma that's still there to begin with in dealing with the current present day, but I think it really led my folks here to think about and how do we support and from that we created an Indigenous Wellness Director position to help us coordinate all of the things we're trying to do in response. And now we're at the point where we're almost finished with the construction of our Indigenous Wellness Center, which is at the center of the Keshena campus. We have the director position and we're looking at continuing to build that work there.

So I think that shows that ongoing historical trauma impact, but it also shows how, you know, tribal institutions can be adaptive to the issues we face, that resiliency that comes through in so many places. And I see that through our campus here in Keshena, but also we have a Green Bay campus in which it serves mainly the Oneida nation population and so extending the work there as well to help our fellow tribal communities. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there and I think we as an institution are still doing that unpacking from that. The pandemic, the COVID thing, but now this continued opioid epidemic from our communities.

Lori Sherman: One of the things that our wellness coordinator and our Anishinaabe director did, you know, they recognized a lot of this turmoil going on within our TCUs and within our reservation, along with one of our Anishinaabe Studies faculty, they decided to do a traditional teaching lodge. It was incredible. It's just incredible. They started doing this and all the students were involved. There were students out there. There was staff out there. There was faculty out there. There was community members, all of them got together and worked together, worked really hard. It was raining. It was cold. And we did it the right way. We did ceremony with it. We blessed it the way we're supposed to. And it was amazing to see everyone come together and build this traditional teaching lodge. So now it's now we're going to be starting to use it as soon as the weather warms up just a little bit. We already have classes scheduled for it and I'd like to - well, we will also have our staff meetings in there and teachings in there for our staff and faculty.

Amber Morseau: Love that. Yeah. One thing that I really want to just say thank you to both of you for sharing this historical narrative and how it comes through in these contemporary contexts and what TCUs actually mean to our community members and what our community members mean to our TCUs as we're kind of going through all of these different transitions and phases and what is it to live and work and breathe and be and do and all of these things in our communities and what we are trying to get back to, right? 

Like we're talking about a lot of the historical context, but also how that historical trauma comes up in the contemporary, right? And so as I kind of shift us to our next question, I also want to acknowledge, you know, while we're talking about contemporary education, you know, the mainstream needs to understand that what we're doing here in the TCUs with the TCU movements and the students and the faculty, the staff, the presidents is we're really rematriating a traditional way of knowing and being right, like our traditional education systems were based in community, in that love for one another and in that love for, you know, our mother earth and everything that we are trying to bring back as a result of colonization and the boarding school era and everything else that was really enacted to steal this way of being and knowing and doing away from us.

And so, you know, not only are TCUs a testament to that love for our community, but a testament to just the resilience that our people have within us to continue to take on these battles, these contemporary battles, which will later on, seven generations down the road, be considered a part of our historical narrative, part of our historical context. But how our students are really combating against that and how our communities and our TCUs are really standing at the forefront of this to be able to move this into, you know, the next circle of what Indian education looks like. 

And so my next question is, it's kind of centered in that. What is your vision for the second circle of the TCU movement? We've just come out of the first 50 years of that celebrating the 50th anniversary of AIHEC and moving forward with our tribal colleges in the second circle of the TCU movement.

Lori Sherman: Do you want to go first? Sure, I can start. So some of my visions would be and key objectives would be, you know, of course, furthering and developing our tribal colleges. Some of the things that I think that we need to pay attention to are definitely our sustainable growth and expansion. We need to continue to grow and expand and serve our communities across the United States. It could be involving establishing new TCUs in areas or to accommodate students and offer a broader range of programs. 

And I think as TCUs we need to start supporting each other and I can really see this movement happening within our tribal colleges. We can set up like course sharing agreements. Like we have to be an Anishinaabe identity course and everyone can sign on and actually we just signed the agreement this morning for this. It's actually called a core sharing agreement. Anishinaabe identity course. And in that agreement, we agree upon certain things that will be taught in this class and it'll be sustainable across all of our colleges. Like there'll be a common course description, course outcomes that'll be similar, timelines, methodology, how we evaluate. So I think it's really neat that we can put this class together and students from all across our TCUs can take it and we work together on who's going to teach it at what time. And there's a lot to it. 

But I think if TCUs can really start supporting each other and set up these transfer agreements, it'll be a movement in itself. We're very strong. We've had to be resilient. We've had to do things with less finances. We've always had to be creative. It doesn't mean it's right. I think we still need to advocate as well as all the other tribal college presidents for a fair share in the funding. 

And a couple other things too, partnerships and collaborations, like I talked about the agreement, even if we collaborate with mainstream, I also think we should collaborate with other tribal colleges and our governments and other stakeholders. But I think it's also important to collaborate with mainstream academics as well. 

Research and innovation. We are smart people. Our students are wicked smart and they have the potential to contribute significantly to both research and innovations throughout our Native American communities in areas such as sciences, our Indigenous science, our environmental sustainability, and also healthcare disparities. So I would like to see more TCUs being able to have that funding to create these research excellence and support our faculty and our staff in these.

Christopher Caldwell: I really appreciate what President Sherman was saying because it does speak to some of the work we're starting to talk about and we've developed a discussion point where we talk about ancestral lands approach. So thinking the influence of CMN on the Menominee people and that our charter is not just limited to our present 235,000 acre reservation, but in reality, that charter was to educate Menominee people with no boundaries identified in there. 

So the way we're starting to read our task is how do we educate our people, first of all, across the ancestral landscape of the Menominee, which is over 10 million acres. How do we impact education across those lands? Because it is a recognition of our responsibility that even though there were treaties, we still have that connection to the land, that responsibility to make sure whoever comes to the land is also educated on the protocols of the land, human and non-human relationships. 

And I think that really is a guiding point for us as we think about not only our next iteration or next 30 years, but then the next 50 of AIHEC and all of our sister TCUs. And by extension, then that does create those opportunities for partnerships because I was mentioning this to a tribal member the other day, it's not like we're gonna make campuses across all 10 million acres, you know, and they said, well, why not? And I was like, oh yeah, well, why not? I know we operate from limited funding, but if you vision like that, I think that is a way that begins to multiply the opportunities to not only share the Menominee story, but for other tribal nations to bring their stories more visibly to the front of the stories that we hear in society today. 

And as President Sherman was talking about what she envisioned, it made me think also that there were trade routes back in the day. And by doing the work we do, especially within AIHEC, we've been reestablishing trade routes in relation to knowledge sharing. And so how do we share knowledge that helps to build each other up, helps us in our own stories, and continues this support that is needed as we walk these similar pathways because of colonization but continued impacts, the fractionating impacts that were seen to identity and to the landscape. So I think there's a lot there for our second cycle. Is that what we call it for the Tribal College?

Amber Morseau: Second circle of the Tribal College.

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah, sorry. I heard a C in there. I love that. But I really think there's a lot of opportunity there. And I think it's going to become even more important as you see tribes wrestling with identity. You know, the blood quantum issue, the fractioning that can happen within communities because of it, but then that also spills into inter-tribal organizations. You know, AIHEC, NCAI have at different points come up where there's this ongoing discussion about identity. 

And I've just experienced in our community, several years ago, there was a vote about first descendant hunting rights, Menominee tribal members who didn't quite make the enrollment because of blood quantum, were less than one quarter. And that really divided across families, across the community. And I see that continuing and we really have to figure out as TCUs, how do we support those dialogues in our communities, but also more broadly. That's gonna be an important part of that second circle. And it really points back to our language and our culture, our cultures, languages and cultures as Indigenous peoples. You know, that as much as you think, bad old story again. Well, I think that is the heart of the story, the solutions that we were looking for, that languages and cultures revitalization, that's all important for answering the questions we're dealing with today.

Amber Morseau: Thank you for sharing that. I just first want to acknowledge that President Sherman is in the woodlands. So she got a little frozen for a moment. So I want to say if you wanted to wrap anything up or if you wanted to just go straight into responding to President Caldwell's and adding, can do whatever makes you feel most comfortable.

Lori Sherman: Did I end? I mean, I think that we kind of need to talk a little bit about some of the things that you know, as we move into the second circle of the tribal college movement, connectivity and broadband. You know, I just froze for a little while on the screen here and talking with you. So, you know, there needs to be more funding for connectivity and broadband in this area. There's in all our tribal college, you know, we have been historically underfunded for those types of improvements that are needed. We need to be on you know, have the same as what our state colleges receive in that type for IT and for connectivity and broadband. I think that's really important.

Dr. Erica Moore: I think you both brought up funding. So I just want, you know, so often I hear the same narrative, right? So all of our students get college free or that, you know, tribal colleges get all of this funding. And I think it's really important that, yes, the federal government has designated congressional funding to TCUs. It does not mean that they're always met those levels or that those levels consider inflation and all of the sort of gaps in the funding structure. But also an important piece to that - many of our TCUs service non-Indigenous students. And so we're only received funding based on the number of federally recognized enrolled members. And so we're still servicing other populations of students. 

And some states do non-beneficiary funding. North Dakota is one, South Dakota declined to do that. So North Dakota, the state is essentially agreeing to support the TCU in services to the non-Indigenous students while other states are saying, you know, it's not my responsibility. So I think it's really important for folks to understand that too, that our students don't receive free education and that our TCUs, even if we are designated congressional funds, that doesn't mean that we're completely funded and we don't have to find alternative routes, which you both sort of touched on. I didn't know if you wanted to expand on those funding difficulties or how you think that the states can support in more effective ways if either of you wanted to expand on that.

Lori Sherman: I can talk a little bit about the funding issues. So in the state of Michigan, we have what's called the Michigan Indian Tuition Waiver. And it does pay for tuition for our students that are quarter-blood or more, they have to live in Michigan for a year without going to school to be eligible. So they have to be a Michigan resident. However, going back, the Michigan Indian tuition waiver used to cover room and board, books, used to cover everything. And each year the government chips away at that. Now we're down to, because before Canadians, indigenous, Native American people could also participate in the Michigan Indian Tuition waiver. They no longer can. And you know, they go on our blood quantum, which I don't think is right either. So like I said, you have to be a quarter blood or more. 

So we don't get free education. It does pay for your tuition, but there's so many hoops you have to jump through that a lot of people do not receive it even though they're native. You know, we often struggle with limited financial resources. Our funding levels are not the same as our state counterparts. We do service both Native and non-Native students here as well. We do have to rely a lot on federal funding, but it is insufficient to meet our needs, very much so. And then sometimes we face challenges in accessing other sources of funding, not only due to our remote locations, but also our limited infrastructure.

And many tribal colleges, we are located in rural or remote areas, and that also can present challenges in our infrastructure development. So even like I was talking about, limited access to internet connectivity and other essential services can delay and hinder our delivery of education and other programs.

Dr. Erica Moore: Absolutely. I think before you go, President Caldwell, because I think you can probably expand on this too, explaining you talked a lot about identity. So I wanted also for the audience to understand that this is a nation to nation agreement, that our identity for our students attending tribal colleges is a political identity. It's not race and ethnicity. For all the reasons that President Sherman discussed dealing with, you have to be a certain blood quantum. Those things come from those agreements between the tribal nation and the federal government. 

And so to be a chartered, you know, to be a tribal college, you have to be chartered by a tribe and you have to have majority federally recognized, you know, citizens as your student population. And this is why the federal government in 1831 and then again in 1942 said we have a trust responsibility, a moral obligation to provide education in Indian country and tribal colleges was one of the ways to do that. So I know you talked heavily about identity, so I didn't know if you wanted to expand as well on that identity piece and then the piece that President Sherman expanded on with the financials.

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah, no, I'm glad you mentioned that Dr. Moore because I mean, this is just scratching the surface of the complexities that tribal colleges operate in this historical complexities, navigating current complexities because of the story of tribal nations in the United States. And if you're just coming into the discussion, it can be tough to hear the terms or different ways identity is used in these discussions. But I think it's also important too, especially if mainstream institutions or other folks are interested in partnering with tribal colleges and universities. Just like if an external researcher wants to work with the tribal community, there's a lot of learning that needs to happen and relationship building that needs to happen before those things can move forward. 

So that's a big part. And looking at the institution as an educational institution, a lot of times partnerships are working with elected officials at the tribal level, the state level, and the federal level is a whole lot of complexity there. And so for funding wise, in Wisconsin, there's the Higher Educational AIDS Board. They oversee the administration and disbursement of state funding for higher education. Within that realm, there is money made available to the two tribal TCUs in the state - us, CMN, College of Menominee Nation, and LCO-OO, Lac Courte Oreilles Ojibwe University. 

The funny thing is, so these monies are available to the TCUs, but it comes from tribal gaming dollars. So it's not like the state's really paying for the non-beneficiary or non-native students that attend. The tribes are still paying for the students.

Dr. Erica Moore: Wow.

Christopher Caldwell: That attend our tribal colleges. And so myself and President Swagger have been trying to get some movement in not only increasing the amount that's available per student, but also in expanding opportunities there. We do get funding through the Wisconsin tribal grants as well, but those levels of funding - again, there's inequities there. 

The HEAB Higher Educational Aids Board is made up of leadership from the UW System Colleges, the Wisconsin Technical Colleges, Wisconsin Private College System, and other elected representatives. We have one TCU representative on the board, and that member is ex officio. We've been trying to work with the app to also move that forward to get the TCU rep as a voting representative like the others. So there is inequity at that level, but I would say the reason we get money to begin with through a formula from the state is because of the work of our founding president, Dr. Verna Fowler. She first identified that as an issue. You know, we weren't getting funding to support non-tribal students that attended. We want them to be here because it's good for connecting our students from tribal communities with non-tribal because that's a good way to develop relationships, to work together. But we weren't getting the support like the state institutions. So she put together a proposal and went to the state legislature and advocated work with the tribal nations. And so what we do get today is a testament to her work. It's on myself and President Swagger now to take that step.

Dr. Erica Moore: Wow. Thank you for sharing that. President Sherman, do you want to add anything else?

Lori Sherman: Just a little bit on the sovereignty. We are a tribal nation and we are sovereign. We are like a nation within a nation. We have our own laws, our own health care, our own police force and people that we work with need to be educated on that, what that actually means. And dealing with state-run universities, you know, we can't be an afterthought. I mean, they'll write an NSF proposal and instead of even trying to build a relationship, they'll call you up and say, do you want to be a part of this? We'll do this and this for you, like again, telling us what we need and not including us in the beginning or including us in the budget. Our time is just as valuable as our state counterparts time. So that is something that I think I really advocate for our tribal college to be treated equally in those matters. So we're not an afterthought.

Dr. Erica Moore: That is absolutely right. I think we seem to be that in many areas of education. And I know we've talked about research many times, but we're the asterisk, right? Like they do the research and then they present the research and we're always falling under the other. They can't even name us or we're just the little asterisk. And that oftentimes happens when we are not leading the research in our own communities. 

And so my team and Anna Weigert, VP of Congressional Affairs have recently provided talking points to the federal government on data sovereignty. And one of the areas we talked most about is the research should be led by the tribal colleges. We're the institutions that exist within the tribal communities. We are researchers, and while I'm not saying anything against PWIs, but oftentimes we see leading researchers are at the PWIs, and they're the ones able to get the federal funds, the grant awards, and then they do, as you mentioned, get the award and then try to rope us into it. 

One of the other pieces of that we talked about is, and I feel strongly about this, I don't know how you feel about this, but I think this at the federal level if they paid more attention to how they did their awarding. In order to get this grant award, have you shown that you already have an established relationship? Will it be the TCU that holds the award, right? Oftentimes they just want to pass it off to the R1 institution. So how do you generally feel about TCUs and working and receiving those federal grants? Do you think they also have that obligation to stop awarding non-Indigenous researchers or non-tribal institutions that are going to do research within our own communities?

Lori Sherman: I think you really hit on something there, Dr. Moore. The grantors, the federal agencies, I think if they started at that level saying, no, don't do these, TCUs are not your afterthought or, I need a diversity component. So I'm going to contact the local tribal college. I think it does need to start at that level where they're writing the requirements for the proposals. We should be added right in at that time. And then it makes it very clear that you just can't write something and then throw us in there.

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah, so this does hit on one of my hobbies here in my free time outside of being president at CMN. I'm working on my dissertation which focuses on our Sustainable Development Institute, which was created 30 years ago as well, along with the college. And the Institute was actually created as a way to reflect on principles of sustainability based on the Menominee sustainable forestry history story, going even back to creation, acknowledging that creation and place-based nature of it. 

I was, before being president, was director of SDI for eight years or so. And what I really wanted to understand was after all those years of working with our community, but also external researchers, a huge variety of external researchers from ones who came and built the relationship before asking for project to collaborate to ones who like President Sherman said, they called you up the week before or the week of and asked if we wanted to sign on. And so we've had those experiences, but also in working on research projects in the community where it really start impressing upon me that, yes, we should be leading the research, but then that also creates a higher level of responsibility for us because we know better. We know, you know, we're not operating at the floor level, we should be operating at the ceiling level. 

But that does take a lot of resources and funding that we definitely don't have if we don't have it for education and academic programming. So finding ways to navigate those partnerships and those relationship developments, that is a tough one often, especially - a lot of TCUs don't have staff or the capacity dedicated to vetting those relationships. And so there's that inequality there, but there is that desire. And there are examples of individual faculty or groups or centers at TCUs that are advancing that capacity. 

And so I think you're right on when you say we need to find some kind of criteria or accountability in the RFP and the awarding process and that peer reviewers are made up of people that understand those stories because I've been on some panels where I felt like I was the only one advocating for the tribal projects and you know you kind of get talked down to and at the time I wasn't - I wasn't that sophisticated, I guess, in thinking about and how to respond to those things. Hopefully that's been building. I've been part of one NSF project where I felt like there was some good advancement, at least in that peer review process across that whole spectrum of the granting process. I think it's important that there's advancements in all the agencies.

Dr. Erica Moore: Yeah, I think on a positive side of that, just because I always like to end on with like when we talk about this really heavy stuff, I do see that AIHEC is building up. Obviously, you have all watched the past you know, two and a half years that I've built up our team. And we did that because as we started this initiative, we realized we become inundated with requests from external researchers wanting to get access to the TCUs. And there was no real like process in place for us to protect you from just being, you know, just hit from all sides asking. And it's been a really unique experience watching, who is willing to follow our processes, to ensure they're doing ethical research within our communities, and who become disgruntled and annoyed that, you know, we've had people say, well, now my dissertation is going to be delayed. When did that become our problem? Like, I'm not trying to say that in a bad way, but when did 35 TCUs become responsible for every other researcher's ability to move forward in their work? 

And so it - we are doing that within AIHEC and trying to protect through those practices. We've all joined as members of the institutional review boards. Amber and I have been deemed as the hardest to get through the work, to get it passed through. But I think there's some ways that we are trying to help mitigate some of those concerns. We are starting and we have already started it, but we have a community of practice of the researchers at the TCUs and now a community of practice of the institutional research professionals. 

But just on the vein of that, so we're trying to do all of this to help support you better. What could AIHEC do? Do you think that that and we're coming back, we'd be as truthful and honest as you want, but more could you expect from AIHEC that you feel could support in the next circle of the tribal college movement with the C?

Lori Sherman: I think AIHEC is doing a lot already. There are legislative summits. Let me start over. I think AIHEC is doing a lot right now to support our TCUs, especially when it comes to advocating for us in Washington by having the legislative summits. I think AIHEC needs to continue and help us to be in those spaces where we haven't been before. If they know if there's an opening somewhere and advocate for a TCU college president or faculty or whoever, somebody from the TCU area to be in those roles. I think that would be very helpful.

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah, I agree that I really think that legislative summit creates access, but it also creates opportunity for our students to be a part of that and you know they're going to be our future leaders and so having them experience that and I've been able to take two sets of students now after COVID and each time has been even better than the last, maybe because I get a better understanding, but watching our students just quiet, some quiet students surprisingly just like blossom in that environment. So I think that's a good part of the development and advocacy, which can also lend to the research part of advocating for the protocols that AIHEC's been working on. And is that community of practices that the knowledge management stewardship group you're talking about?

Dr. Erica Moore: That is separate from those community practices, but it is like the sweetgrass wrapping them all together. How do we disseminate this information between or amongst ourselves in a good way that supports the TCUs?

Christopher Caldwell: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that right there is like that capacity development. Again, some TCUs don't have dedicated staff to be thinking about those things. So if there's regular trainings or ways to bring TCU researchers together on a regular basis, you know, and I know we work with American Indian College Fund as well. They have a fairly robust research area. The Tribal College Research Journal is a forum to help that development. And so I think with AIHEC, that is a part of the work you're doing in those two areas already is - I've seen it develop over time, just in the short time I've been in here, but it's also been helpful to, as you think about the future issues that Indigenous researchers at TCUs have to contend with. 

Luckily, we have an environment where there continue to be new Indigenous researchers coming in TCUs and so understanding that special place of being directly connected in the communities that they're working with and helping them to understand how research is not like this lofty thing that's not compatible with practical everyday applications. I'm not sure how far AIHEC is in that regard, but I think that's an important part too - that practicality along with the theory.

Dr. Erica Moore: Yeah, I agree. I agree. 

Lori Sherman: One other area too that I think AIHEC, I mean, I love AIHEC. They're very supportive of our TCU. But I would like to see a formal mentorship program. A lot of our tribal college presidents are new and I'm new myself. It kind of happens organically, but I would like to see a more formal mentorship program that can explain the different, because it took me a little while, okay, this is what they're doing now. You know, there's so many different aspects of AIHEC. It took a little while to learn different, all the different roles that they're doing for us. So I think with a mentorship program for, you know, maybe tribal college presidents that have been only in it for three years or something like that, pair them up with somebody and that would be helpful for new presidents coming in.

Dr. Erica Moore: I just was in our leadership meeting talking about we're getting ready to survey you all about that mentorship program who wants to be mentor. So I know that we had some rendition many years ago and for some reason I think it kind of as we as the same president stuck around for a really long time they no longer really needed the mentorship. But you're right. Now we have roughly like 16 relatively new presidents within like the last three to five years being brought on. So it's really, really important. And you, I think, mentioned it in the beginning that, you know, our relationship with one another is equally as important. The support we have, you all as presidents should be key for yourselves. Amber, do you have any other questions or?

Amber Morseau: These presidents we had today, again, Chi-miigwech, President Sherman and President Caldwell, you all really took these questions and ran with them, right? And brought to us a perspective around, a much larger perspective around the questions that we're asking, right? And so like, you know, one of the things that I really value about the conversation today is you got us thinking a little bit deeper beyond the surface level of the questions that we were asking you today, right? Which is something that you all have to think about on a daily basis, right? This is really an inside look into the day in the life of our tribal education leaders, not just our tribal college presidents, but the folks at AIHEC, the folks at the American Indian College Fund could also be applied to other national organizations like NIEA.

And then being able to bring to light and I appreciate the acknowledgement of those activists who really fought for us to be in this space in tribal education. I appreciate it very much. You know, I, that's where I come from is, an activist family. You know, my grandfather Stan Boss senior, he was there with Paul Johnson when they marched and created the Michigan Indian Tuition Waiver. So it's, this conversation really brought us back to our roots, right? Even beyond where AIHEC was 50 years ago when the tribal college movement started. And so I appreciate that acknowledgement that went out to all of those folks. So Chi-Miigwech for being able to bring that perspective and to share with our listening community about the deep roots of our community, and doing the education as a broader sense.

Christopher Caldwell: I appreciate hearing President Sherman's thoughts too, TCU president. I think you started around when I did as well.

Lori Sherman: Yes, and I really, I learn from you whenever you speak. And you are a pretty good dancer too.

Dr. Erica Moore: For our AIHEC meeting where we did some dance class. She has videos.

Christopher Caldwell: Fancy dance?

Lori Sherman: He did. Okay.

Dr. Erica Moore: Did we get video?

Lori Sherman: I do.

Dr. Erica Moore: I'd love to see it. I think you two were hilarious that we started off and you were like, these are the questions that I want asked. Like don't strike and y'all created your own questions. You were asking questions that I wrote down to make sure I asked our other presidents. So I loved that. I think you had such an amazing, you know, abundance of information to share stuff like Amber said we weren't even thinking about when we were asking you the original thoughts and questions. 

So I guess I will say before I close out, is there anything that you wanted to share one last, you know, thing you want to share about your college or a message you wanted to send out for non-tribal college leaders and how they can support you, a message of support to your students, whatever you want to share before we wrap up. You want to go first or you want?

Christopher Caldwell: Go ahead. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. I appreciate the opportunity. You know, for everything that we deal with here at the tribal college, we always welcome visitors if they want to come, you know, visit our campus, learn more from our students, learn more from our faculty and how we work together to make this an experience that is, it doesn't just benefit the individual students, but you can see it ripple across the community. It elevates the community for every obstacle we deal with there are so many opportunities and I think, you know, that's a part of people think college and university and they just picture whatever experience they've had. But I think coming to a TCU and visiting really expands and opens up how people think about us and we do like to showcase our campuses and our students. So I would just say if you're interested in visiting, please reach out to us. And in that way, we can begin to build that relationship if there's opportunities in the future.

Lori Sherman: I'm not sure how to say this. So like, we look to the state universities for collaboration and working on different things, but they can also look towards us to learn from us. We have - and very important, did I get that point across? You know what I mean? The state universities need to look to tribal colleges to be able to inform their systems because we're the knowledge holders, especially. But I was trying to say, yeah, you are the knowledge holders and the state universities can learn a lot from us as well as other collaborations that we have throughout our communities.

I just want to say Chi-Miigwech for everything that you do at AIHEC. It's been very helpful for me when our students go to those conferences and they come back or the legislative summit. They are so empowered and I just thank AIHEC for that as well. And you know that we're not just impacting our students, we're impacting their families as well. You know, many of us are first generation college students and because I was a first generation college student. My son went to college because he seen that's what I was doing and this just opens it up for generations for our families and our communities. So it impacts it. The impact is further than what we even know.

Dr. Erica Moore: I think we agree. Well, if Amber, if you don't have any other questions, I'm going to let you all go after such a beautiful discussion. I think this has been an incredible, really insightful, thoughtful conversation with both of you. I appreciate you sharing your stories. For all the audience, please continue to follow Ed Up Experience to follow along with more episodes highlighting amazing TCU presidents. And then follow us all on LinkedIn, especially if you want to follow the journey of these two TCU presidents. They are amazing. It would be very insightful for you, the audience, to follow us along. And you have all been Ed-Up.