811: What Makes a College Stand Out - with Leocadia I. Zak, President, Agnes Scott College

Joe Sallustio: Welcome back everybody. It's your time to ed up on the EdUp Experience podcast where we make education your business. As many of you have listened to my voice, my voice sounds a little bit different because I have a cold. I have a nine-year-old and a six-year-old and they do jujitsu and somehow they bring home germs and I catch every single one of them lately. I never used to get sick at all, but now my wife has reminded me on a daily basis, I'm the only one that seems to get sick in my household. So I'm going to do my best, but I brought somebody way cooler than me to help me guest co-host this. You'll hear from her in a minute. No pressure to her.

But as you guys may have heard on previous episodes, we passed our four-year anniversary of the EdUp Experience podcast. May not seem significant to some of you because lots of things happen over four years, but to us to do 800 and something podcast episodes feels like a lot. I got to tell you guys it feels like a lot - a lot of conversation. But what has come out of it? Well besides the fact that we interviewed now 256 college and university presidents from all across the world, the insights, the innovation, the challenges, the solutions, the passion, more than anything, the passion for the unbelievable, unmistakable positive influence that higher education has on society. It's undeniable. I know there are questions out there about value. I feel like we answer them here on the EdUp Experience podcast. I really do. I feel like the passion's here and we're going to jump into that passion. 

And I'm going to just get off the mic because I'm going to catch my breath. I'm going to bring in my guest co-host. This is not the first time you're going to hear her. You've actually heard her once before, but she'll be back again as co-host. Ladies and gentlemen, she is Sonia Khan. She is the VP for Innovation at Ellucian. Sonia, how are you?

Sonia Khan: I'm doing fantastic. And I'm sending you some virtual soup.

Joe Sallustio: Thank you very much. I appreciate that. And Sonia, we've met in person before at Ellucian Live 2023. And you came on to talk about all the AI innovations going on at Ellucian. Here we are a year later, and AI is still a thing. We're all still trying to figure it out, right? Have you figured it out since you're like a computational genius?

Sonia Khan: I don't know if I figured it out, but yes, it's still very much this sense of magic and excitement. And we're looking still to figure out the best way to use it in an ethical and mature way. But my gosh, what an exciting time to be in right now. We're watching this disruption in real time.

Joe Sallustio: Well, I'll see you this year at Ellucian Live 2024, where we will be again podcasting live. So excited about that. But speaking of magical and exciting, we have an amazing guest for you all today. I'm gonna bring her in right now, because I know she has a lot to say. Ladies and gentlemen, her name is Leocadia I. Zak. She is the president of Agnes Scott College. Lee, welcome to the EdUp microphone. How are you?

Leocadia I. Zak: Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here. And Joe, thank you with your cold and all for hosting us today.

Joe Sallustio: I wouldn't miss this for the world because we've missed each other two or three times already, probably due to me. But I've been so excited to talk with you because you do so much advocacy for women's leadership. You are leading a college that's based on that but I want to give away what kind of college you have. I want you to set the foundation for us. For our audience who go "Agnes Scott College, I'm not maybe it's the first time I'm hearing about Agnes Scott." Tell us what you do, where you are and how you do it.

Leocadia I. Zak: Well, thank you very much. And I hope everyone gets to hear about Agnes Scott. And you mentioned before passions, and Agnes Scott is my passion. It is one of the most unbelievable colleges in the country. It is recognized as one of the most diverse campuses in the country. We have no ethnic, racial or socioeconomic majority on our campus. So it's a very special and you use the word magical place to be. We are a women's college and traditionally women's college and we're one that has combined liberal arts education with experiential learning. 

So we have an experience called Summit, which focuses on global learning and women's leadership development. The experience part of it is that every first-year student has a faculty-led experience. That's a global experience. So this year in March, based on some coursework, students are going to places like Belize and Cuba and Morocco. And so that's our entire first-year class. Many who have traveled around the world and some who've never left the country before doing that all together. And for our second-year class, we have a sophomore class Atlanta leadership experience. So at that same week, the first years go abroad, the second years go into the metropolitan Atlanta community. And Agnes Scott is located here in that community in Decatur. And they go into the community and follow leaders in for-profit, not-for-profits, professions, and get that experience of being in the work world and combining what they're learning in the classroom with what they're going to need to have for skills when they leave. 

And having Sonia here, one of the really important parts about that as well is the work we're doing with respect to digital learning and digital education. We want to be sure that all of our students are ready to take their place in the world and it is a digital world when they leave Agnes Scott.

Joe Sallustio: Amazing. So I'm going to hit you with the first hard question right out of the gate, which is enrollment is tough for all of us right now. And when you say women's college, the first thing that will go to people's minds who maybe haven't thought through everything well is, you know what, you're going to have enrollment challenges forever because you're only serving half the population or a certain part of the population. Then other people who might be more experienced go, whoa, what a great value proposition this is. What a great differentiator this is for a certain segment of the population who's looking for a particular experience. What's that conversation like, that balance conversation like for you and for those at Agnes Scott?

Leocadia I. Zak: Well, I have to start with the fact that I went to a women's college. So I really value the special environment that's created in a women's college. It's amazing to be in a place where women have to do everything. I love doing this podcast. I have to tell you, when I was in college, I was back in the days of radio and I was a DJ. And it's not something I think I would have done if I hadn't been at a women's college. So it really is a very special learning environment. It's one that I think really helps. And it's not for everyone, but a very special set of our female population to be able to learn and grow. 

I also have to tell you that this week we were talking with some students and they talked about the fact that, you know, when they decided to come to Agnes Scott, they hadn't realized it was a women's college. They saw all the other things that were going on here. They loved the experiential learning. And then ultimately, as they said, it was really the icing on the cake that it is a women's college.

Joe Sallustio: That's cool. Let me ask one quick follow-up, Sonia, then I'll pass it to you. We beat the COVID thing to death, I think, with questions. But was there a realization possibly from women looking at college post-COVID that they were looking for more of an intimate environment or a safer type environment? Because there are safety concerns that I think happen with co-ed institutions, maybe the same. I'm generalizing, I think, a little bit. Did you see a COVID effect?

Leocadia I. Zak: I think it's happening everywhere in higher education. And I'm not sure that it's necessarily because it's women, but one of the post-COVID effects was that more students want to live on campus. Before COVID, 85% of our students lived on campus. And before COVID, the students were like, "Gosh, I really want to be able to live off campus. Do I really have to live here?" Post-COVID, they're like, "We want to be on campus." There was this appreciation for what it was like to be among other students. Frankly, appreciation for not being home, appreciation for not worrying about being in an apartment. So one of the things that we see is a much greater demand in the residential space. And I think that's helping residential colleges, not only women's colleges post-COVID.

Joe Sallustio: Very good. Sonia, over to you.

Sonia Khan: I think the experiential learning work that you're doing at Agnes Scott is amazing to see. I'm just curious, how are you managing that shift from traditional learning to experiential learning? What tools and technology became really critical for you as you moved your institution to really focus on what it means to actually start capturing learning and experiences on the job?

Leocadia I. Zak: Well, I have to give so much credit to our faculty, our staff, President Kiss, who preceded me, and our board of trustees, because they really focused on what it would take to provide our students with an education that would make them ready for the future and what would be unique. It really started with the faculty and their recognizing that Agnes Scott for a long time had a tradition focused on global. So how do we create an experience for students? They're the ones who teach the course. They're the ones who take the students abroad. So really it was a very engaged faculty as part of that. 

Subsequently, the second stage with the sophomore class Atlanta leadership experience, again, our faculty was instrumental in helping guide in that area with a faculty committee. But the other thing that they did is that they are mapping their liberal arts curriculum to the skill set that is needed for jobs of the future. That is amazing. So you look at a history course and say, what am I learning that is applicable to a job? You know, they're learning the research skills, the critical thinking skills, the writing skills. And one, explaining to the students what is the skill set in addition to the knowledge. Also explaining to employers what it is that comes out of a liberal arts education and why our students are prepared for what they need. 

I will say one additional very special thing about Agnes Scott is the diverse environment, diverse and inclusive environment in which our students are learning. So that right now they are learning in an environment that reflects the work world. They're not being isolated, it's not an ivory tower. It's an inclusive, excellent education, but it's being surrounded by people that they'll come in contact with throughout their lives.

Joe Sallustio: Tell them like it is. So I want to read something kind of down this same path of thinking, and then I'll pass it back over to Sonia. This is from your website, printed September 18, 2023. "For a sixth year, Agnes Scott College has been recognized as the nation's number one most innovative liberal arts college in the country, according to U.S. News & World Report's Best College rankings. Number two for social mobility and placed number three for first-year experiences and number four for learning communities." Holy moly. How does this happen?

Leocadia I. Zak: It happens from amazing collaboration throughout our campus community. So, as I mentioned, really, our faculty are really committed to ensuring that our students succeed and acknowledging that they have to look at their curriculum to ensure that that's the case. Our staff similarly are focused on our students, recognizing that we want to be sure that we create an environment where there's a sense of belonging, but also to ensure, one of our pillars for our strategic plan is a pathway to success. And it's actually the name of our strategic plan. And we want to be sure there's a focus on our campus. And it may be part of being that smaller liberal arts campus that everyone is engaged in seeing how do our students succeed and recognizing that the jobs of tomorrow, that they need different skills than people may have had in the past.

Joe Sallustio: I look at Sonia back over to you in a sec, I... most innovative and I go, okay, define that for me innovation. Forget the rankings. When you think about innovation, because you're on with Sonia who's like that - she's probably creating AI programs while we're sitting here talking because I've spoken to her. She's like super smart. But what does that mean to you leadership-wise? Like innovation, how you innovate, what it is that you're innovating to, how do you think about that innovation piece, which we know is critical to higher ed?

Leocadia I. Zak: I think one of the most important things is sort of evaluating who you are, what are your values, and what do you want to achieve. For us, we want to be sure that our students are successful. So we can't just look at what's happening today. We have to be planning for what's happening in the future and what it is that they're gonna face in the future. So part of innovation for us is trying to project what it is that our students are going to need. What are the skillsets for the future? How do we model that across our campus? Basically a big part of it is change. I will say higher education isn't known for that, but it's something I think that sets us apart and the fact that we're willing to adapt.

I will say one of my favorite books that Sonia may be familiar with, it's called Scrum, which is often used in the tech world. And what you do is you look at what you're doing on your way to your goals. You evaluate it, you critically evaluate it, you make changes and say, I'm not going to keep going on implementing in that way if it's not getting me to the goal. You don't wait till the end. You constantly evaluate. And so I think that's part of the innovation here too, that people look at what we've done, is it achieving its goals? If not, don't do it that way again. Let's try, let's make a change, let's not keep doing the same thing. 

I will say the other side of this, it's become part of our DNA, that there's an expectation that we're gonna be innovative, we're gonna be on top of it. And I have to tell you, if something goes wrong on campus, it's the first thing the students will say to us, "Yep, we're number one for innovation." But if there's an expectation, then okay, we can figure it out.

Joe Sallustio: It's really hard to achieve that, by the way. It's really hard to achieve that organizational innovation mindset in higher ed, at a higher ed institution. And that is why I'm one of the most fortunate presidents in the country, to be at a place like Agnes Scott that thinks in this way.

Sonia Khan: Now, I love the callback to Scrum. We do a lot of that here too. It's that iterative and failing and being comfortable with it and what that means. And I got to tell you, at Ellucian, we really find that the institutions who've done that really hard work to map their entire systems around a student-first focus are the ones who are really truly seeing that growth and gain in the student outcomes. It seems obvious to say student-first, of course. But it's that alignment of their strategic plan that actually connects the technology and the tools that really accelerate everything that you have listed out in your strategic plan. It's basically like, what are you doing to get your staff and your faculty excited about the future and making them have tools at their fingertips that are really accelerating what they need to do?

I'm curious to see what you've found has worked really well. You talked about prediction. In my mind, that feels like solid analytics, but what else have you found has given you that leg up on innovation?

Leocadia I. Zak: Well, I have to say, again, I think you hit the nail on the head on several of the things. I'll give you another example in addition to Summit, which is just fantastic. One of the things our faculty just did is they created a creative arts department. So clearly we have wonderful dance, wonderful performing arts, wonderful art. And they just thought about it and said, you know, these really interrelate. Students should know them all. Let's put this together in a curriculum that engages some of these other disciplines. So they developed a creative arts curriculum and for our incoming first years, it's the number one major.

So, you know, the faculty was in tune to what students want, but also in tune to what they need to say, if you're to be a theater major, you need to understand what's going on with respect to dance. You need to be able to understand the painting of a set, et cetera. We're going to give you all of those skills. The other thing, and you know, in the digital world, we were very fortunate, thanks to Representative Nikema Williams, to receive a federal grant to develop our digital infrastructure and digital learning. And that actually is going to be located in the building where some of our creative arts are, because we can see that connection between the digital and the creativity for the future.

Sonia Khan: I love that. I think that's a great connection back to figuring out what it would do to really enhance these faculty members and the creative work that's already happening on campus with those tools and technology to get them there. Joe, I'd love to ask President Zak about the Journeys to Leadership podcast, because as a woman in leadership, I just thought that was beautiful. Can I go ahead and jump in there and get her a question?

Joe Sallustio: You're the guest co-host. You can do whatever you want. And you're sick too. Yeah, take over, please.

Sonia Khan: All right. I listened to a few. As a woman in leadership, I love that you're amplifying these stories of women who are journeying into leadership or through leadership currently. And what it felt like was that each one of those podcasts were a lesson that you were teaching, that secret sauce for women. I'm always looking for the secret sauce because there is no handbook for being a woman in leadership, especially in technology in my world. It's always something that I'm trying to navigate. But I love that you almost have this guidebook now of stories that are inspiring.

I'm curious to see as you've done many of them, it looks like dozens of them, what are the patterns that you're noticing about exceptional women leaders?

Leocadia I. Zak: Well, one, I want to catch up with Joe and the number of podcasts that he has done. I'm not so sure that you do want to do that.

Joe Sallustio: I have to tell you. I have a ways to go. 

Leocadia I. Zak: And it's interesting. We just, as a matter of fact, we recorded a podcast this morning with someone who's involved in women in Atlanta and STEM. So it's a bit fresh as I would think about her journey. So it's been a learning experience for me too as we've done these podcasts and there've been some interesting themes that have come out of it. One of them is oftentimes people think that they are going to be one thing or do one thing, but because they were open to change, they were put on a different path and one that was meant for them and where they became much more successful.

So being open to change, recognizing that whatever you choose for the very first thing you do will not necessarily be the thing that you always do for the rest of your life. My career has taken several different paths. There've been some threads that also, but that's the other part. There are threads that go throughout what your passions are, what your loves are very much. The focus on change, women being willing to take risk. It's something you know, is I see is extremely important. The ability of someone to say yes when they need to. 

The other thing that surprised me a little bit, but I have to tell you almost every single podcast was how often a woman was asked to do something and she responded to it. And that became her next break. And it was interesting. You know, I've interviewed politicians, academics and business people and so often they mention someone told me that I was good at this. I had as a matter of a performer, a well-known singer and we said when did you learn, when did you know this was it? She said when someone told me I could sing. 

So the lesson in that for me is A, one, women being good listeners. Two, until we get beyond the being asked, other women, men too, Joe, have to identify people and ask them. If you see the talent, if you see where they can go, you might need to plant that seed in them and say, did you think about this? I really see this in you. I can imagine you doing this and how often you've changed a life and a career, made a leader by doing that.

Sonia Khan: It's beautiful. It makes me teary because I have stories exactly like that, where it's almost sad that it took someone else seeing something in me instead of me just recognizing it on my own. But it's absolutely a theme with people who I work with too, who I'm always trying to amplify as well, that sometimes it's making the connection for them and recognizing the potential if they can't see it initially, because the world has been conditioned to think one way or the other about who they are.

Leocadia I. Zak: And I think, you know, it is recognizing reality that from a very young age, girls are not conditioned to put up their hand. They're not conditioned to say, this is what I want to do. It's, you know, how do we help turn that around from what young girls and women were conditioned to do?

Joe Sallustio: Do you take the learnings from that podcast? Because you're talking about really powerful things, people who've navigated something challenging. Do you bring that into Agnes Scott when you're in a meeting and you're talking about, we've got future leaders here on campus. We have these people. How do we know? How do we find out that, you know, how do we put these women on a path to help them get on the path to not wait for them to have doubt or a lack of self-confidence before we approach them? Do you have these learnings go back and forth?

Leocadia I. Zak: It's a wonderful question and the answer is yes. That it's, you know, whether it's with my own leadership team, which is absolutely phenomenal. I have some of the best vice presidents and leaders in higher education. But even more broadly, when we talk about, when we're focused on the strategic plan and the pathway to success for our students, talking about how do we as a community identify talent and support that talent and be sure to tell students that we think you can do this. 

And I have to say right now, I'm in a temporary office. My office is, our building is being renovated, we're in my offices. And I'm actually in the student center right now for my office. Amazing. And I love it. And it's a great opportunity for me to engage with the students. And the other thing I do is I have, I can do this because of our size. I have all our first years come to the president's house for ice cream, cupcakes, desserts. And students will often say to me, you know, what a beautiful house you have. And I will say, it's not my house. It's the college's house, but it could be your house. And I think that's what we have to encourage to let people know this could be yours. And remember to say it to somebody.

Joe Sallustio: Most interesting part of that, too, is there are many people that in higher ed in college that go, I want to run an institution someday or I'm going to end up in higher education. I can't tell you how many people I talked to. They're like, I just ended up here. I started, I took a job thinking I could do it. And next thing I knew 20 years later, I'm in higher ed. It's, it's, it's funny that you say that because I think people, when you think about the work world, they think anything but education. We're dying for good talent in higher ed too. So how does that, this is me just building on a question poorly, but the point being is succession planning is important. Especially if you're in an intimate setting you've got a small leadership team one part of that leadership team leaving or departing whether it's performance or otherwise can really hurt because everybody does everything a lot of the time. How do you think about succession planning? Leadership preparation, you bringing people along?

Leocadia I. Zak: It is one of the hardest things in smaller institutions not having enough of a bench as you do the succession planning. But again, I think we are fortunate in the fact that there is so much collaboration among our different areas that that really helps with respect to the succession planning. We're deliberate with respect to training and providing opportunities for training, especially with respect to leadership and management. We actually do have a module that we use online and our people and culture training area encourages our managers to be part of that. So we're intentional with respect to the training and human development. But it is difficult in a smaller environment, but we're always, I always like to keep my eye out for talent. 

And I have to say, you know, a little bit of the talent, the person who produces my podcast, Sydney was one of our students. And she took the initiative and invited me to her presentation for one of her classes where she had done a film for a class she wrote, produced, had friends help film it. And I was like, my gosh, this is terrific.

Joe Sallustio: That's experiential learning. Go ahead, Sonia.

Sonia Khan: No, I love that. I love that she had the grit to even invite you to that presentation. And then you found that seed and turned it into something that's beautiful. I love those podcasts.

Leocadia I. Zak: Thank you. Thank you. We're going to have to have you on the podcast.

Joe Sallustio: I was just going to say, I know a great guest for you. I mean, she's the VP of innovation for like a $4 billion tech company, whatever the heck they're worth over there at Ellucian. You're going to be, you're going to be hearing from Sydney soon.

Sonia Khan: Okay, that sounds amazing. I promise I wasn't fishing for an invite, but I really enjoyed it. I was sending them to my team too.

Joe Sallustio: Thank you. We want to give you time to eat lunch, which is, I don't know, like presidents pretty much don't eat lunch or use restrooms I've found. So I don't know what the skill set is there. But we want to give you time to transition to your next responsibility. So I'm going to kind of close with the same two questions we ask of every guest. Less of a question, more of an open mic moment for you, Lee. What else do you want to say about Agnes Scott College? Anything that's going on, anything that you just want to love on your team, you want to talk about some innovation coming, anything at all, open mic, give it to us.

Leocadia I. Zak: Well, you know, I'd love to love on our students as well as the team. I am so proud of Madison Jennings, who is a Rhodes Scholar. So she was just announced as a Rhodes Scholar. If people don't know, only 32 people in the country are asked to be Rhodes Scholars. I was rooting for her. She wanted to go to law school. I was all set for that. She's going to have to take that detour to Oxford for the next two years, but really excited about that and proud of her for that. Also very proud of the fact that in the last two consecutive years, alums of Agnes Scott have been named MacArthur Geniuses. So Jordan Casteel, who's a phenomenal painter, and Loretta Ross, who focuses on creating a call-in culture instead of a call-out culture. So not only do I get to work among these amazing young people, they go on to achieve phenomenal things. And I think part of it is because of the fact that we've created a really different, diverse and inclusive environment in which students can learn and that they can succeed.

Joe Sallustio: You know, I always I'm a huge advocate for institutions like Agnes Scott for a couple of reasons. One, they're just so important to the fabric of society. But two, because the graduates you produce are the ones that are going to close the wage gap. They're going to bring society up, it's gonna take us into the next future. And that million or billion dollar donor that's gonna go to the Ivy League and give them money that they don't need or want or care about, give it to institutions like Agnes Scott instead. It's the biggest con in the history of higher ed, is that you have institutions that could literally buy countries and you have billion, million dollar donors giving them money. And you have institutions that could really use that money to serve students and it's that - the playing field is so rigged. It makes me upset. I want to because the graduates you produce are amazing. And it's like, let's do more of that. Not nothing against the Ivy League, but they get enough money. Come on. Spread some love around. Anyway, we put you on mute again on this important moment.

Leocadia I. Zak: Joe, if you weren't already my favorite podcaster, you just became my favorite podcaster. You know, thank you so much for that. It really, you know, it does take financial support to be able to provide the level of education that we do. And it is so important to social mobility, as you pointed out. It is why we are number two. 40% of our students are Pell Grant students, and we make sure they graduate. And that 95% of our students a year out either have jobs or are into graduate school. So we use that investment in Agnes Scott well for the future of the students, but it's frankly for the future of our country and the world.

Joe Sallustio: Love it. Okay. What do you see for the future of higher education? Crystal ball moment.

Leocadia I. Zak: I see amazing young people coming out of higher education, but you already you already focused on it. We have to be sure that people understand the value of higher education, what it does for society and ensure that we invest in higher education and we invest in our young people. They are focused on climate. They are focused on making the world better. We need to focus on them and invest in them.

Joe Sallustio: Sonia, when you hear everything that Lee said, especially at a women's college and taking women and helping break down the barriers, you're a woman in STEM, essentially, which is we know that the women in STEM is a huge area for opportunity. You've made it. You've gone through barriers. What does this mean to you emotionally to hear what Lee's talking about that she does at Agnes Scott?

Sonia Khan: I mean, it's clear the commitment she has to her students. You can hear it. And I just think building that future workforce of strong, powerful women who are resilient is what I'm hearing from Agnes Scott and President Zak. These are things that I think when you talk about investment, is exactly where you want to be placing your investment in is growing that future set of women leaders. And I can see it in their strategic plan and I see it in the work that they're doing. I'm so inspired by it.

Joe Sallustio: Well, will say Sonia probably is developing the next AI program that we're going to use, Lee. So she will be a good podcast guest for you. And I don't joke when I say these things because she is awesome and will be great. You are also awesome in the work that you're doing. I'm so happy to be able to give you the platform today to celebrate the work at Agnes Scott. I hope people listen to this episode and take heed of what can be done when you have mission alignment and you have a shared vision and you have a bunch of very powerful women driving the change. A lot can be accomplished. 

First, before I let you go, I want to thank my guest co-host today. First time, but not last. Her name is Sonia Khan. She is the VP of Innovation at Ellucian. Sonia, you know, I'm excited to see you in like what two or three months?

Sonia Khan: Yeah, I'll be better by then.

Joe Sallustio: I will be better by then. I hope I hope I'm better than if not, then the higher ed, the stress of higher ed is getting to me. But we're not going to let it. And of course, our esteemed guest today, I am going to tell you right now, you can check out her podcast Journeys to Leadership. It's right off the Agnes Scott website, AgnesScott.edu. Literally a picture of podcasting, which is amazing on this page. Listen to these episodes. They're powerful. Lee, it's been a pleasure. Ladies and gentlemen, her name is Leocadia I. Zak. She is the president of Agnes Scott College. I have to ask you if you had a good time on the podcast today. We know we could talk higher ed, but did you have fun?

Leocadia I. Zak: I had a wonderful time. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Joe Sallustio: Ladies and gentlemen, you've just ed-upped.