825: LIVE from ⁠InsightsEDU⁠ 2024 - with Karl Daubmann, Dean of the College of Architecture & Design, Lawrence Technological University

Joe Sallustio: Welcome back everybody. It's your time to up on the EdUp Experience podcast where we make education your business. We're continuing to interview amazing people here at Insights EDU, the conference put on by Education Dynamics here in Phoenix, Arizona at the Renaissance Marriott. It is happening. You can hear these people in the background. I think they're getting coffee, maybe a little bit too much depending on, but it is still early in the day. I think we've done four of these or so already. We're gonna keep doing them and Education Dynamics will make sure that they keep putting amazing people in front of us. 

We've got somebody with us today that's gonna talk to us about what's going on in academics and what's going on in online higher education from an academic perspective, if you will. Ladies and gentlemen, he's Karl Daubmann. He's the Dean of the College of Architecture and Design at Lawrence Technological University. Welcome to the mic, Karl, how are you?

Karl Daubmann: I'm great, thank you for having me.

Joe Sallustio: Thanks for coming in. First, level set for us. Tell us about Lawrence Technological University. What do you do and how do you do it?

Karl Daubmann: As you said, I'm the Dean of the College of Architecture and Design. The university is about 3000 students in Detroit, Michigan, with a technological focus. And it's always been a discussion about theory and practice. So a connection to industry and the professions. It grew up around the first building of LTU, which was at the Model T factory with Henry Ford.

Joe Sallustio: Amazing. When you say technological focus, I think I know what that means. But if I didn't know what that means, and I want to get more specific, what does that mean?

Karl Daubmann: Well, I'll get even more specific that in the college that I'm responsible for, as it relates to design and architecture, I'd say there's in the last decade, there's nothing that's transformed the profession more than technology and that continues to happen. So from automation and the use of the computer to even now AI, the way that we design things is radically transformed because of technology.

Joe Sallustio: That is correct. Well, I didn't warn you about the sound effects today.

Karl Daubmann: You did not. I'm getting used to them. But as we start to think about the way that we work in industry, how much technology has both changed the way that we design, changed business practices, changed business models. All of these things are kind of up for grabs. And so we try and expose our students to these and get them curious. And the fact that these are going to constantly change.

Joe Sallustio: You're - this is - I love that you're here, by the way, as a dean at a marketing and enrollment conference for the online student. Why are you here? What are you doing here, Karl?

Karl Daubmann: Well, part of the reason why I chose to go to LTU - I didn't start there, I've been there for about seven years - was because it has non-traditional students. I chose that on purpose, wanting to serve other types of students as well as mid-career professionals. And so our master's program in architecture is completely online.

Joe Sallustio: Somebody listening thought this inconceivable, but it's true.

Karl Daubmann: A lot of people think that. And so we've been working with Education Dynamics for a number of years and so have built that relationship with them.

Joe Sallustio: Okay. How hard was it to get a program like architecture to be fully online and bring everybody with you in order to do that?

Karl Daubmann: It's actually not something that I started. The program has been in place for probably a little over a decade. But it was never kind of fully - I think there was a - when I arrived, there were students, there were Masters of Architecture students that were on campus, and then those that were also online. And so it was this kind of dual program, the hybrid kind of thing. And so we had to make a decision to move it to be all online. And we're one of the few schools in the country that caters not solely, but is open to mid-career professionals, or people that are moving from a different field into architecture.

Joe Sallustio: So what do you hope to learn at a marketing enrollment conference, like the trends of an online learner, what they're looking for, how they're looking for it, how are you then connecting that with the academic offerings? Talk a little bit about what you hope that you're taking away from this conference, or that you are taking away.

Karl Daubmann: Absolutely. Already have taken away - already like communicating back to people on campus, hey, we need to try this, we need to do it. I think it started yesterday with the kind of the first presentation about a lot of the trends. And it's amazing how quickly some of these things are changing.

Joe Sallustio: It's how quickly - yikes.

Karl Daubmann: It's so funny. Yeah. Yikes. Not like still amazing at like how quick students are making decisions, how quick they want to get enrolled and get going in these things. And so there's kind of massive changes happening in higher ed. And so I think starting with trends and then it's also just amazing to be meeting people here and hearing their experiences, sharing what we're doing and finding overlap between those things.

Joe Sallustio: What do you think are the trends that stick out most to you for the online student? What do you have eyes on right now as a dean? Because you have to grow your college, right? I'm sure a part of this for you - knowing the role of a dean and working with several of them myself, it's like, you got to grow your college and what are you going to offer? What are you going to do? How are you going to do it to get the population of your college up? What trends are sticking out to you with the students that you have and the students you want to get?

Karl Daubmann: One of the things that I'm struggling with as it relates to that is just this relationship between - so much discussion about the recruitment enrollment is about a seamlessness, right? How complicated that is. But then I also feel like education at its heart is not seamless, right? We want to challenge students to do other types of things. In a field like architecture, we have accreditation. And so it's trying to navigate and balance that.

Joe Sallustio: Exactly. It's a tough balance. Right. Especially with a transient student, that students are very fickle right now. And I feel and I see it a lot where in my institution, I'm a chief experience officer. And so then it's like, what that title has done is that anyone who has a bad experience, they know exactly where to find me. Anyone who has a good experience, I never see them. It's, you know, this didn't work or that didn't work. So I'm just going to think about transferring. It's like, wait a second. You just had a bad bite of food or you know, the door was locked when you went there or whatever. And they're very fickle. And I'm finding that that threat or promise probably of the students moving on makes me feel like I have to sell them all the time. I'm always reselling, reselling, reselling. If that's the case in your college, do your faculty realize that? Do they feel the same responsibility for retention and customer focus? Or is that evolving?

Karl Daubmann: It's something that's evolving. And I think there's a lot of balance that has to come with that. I think I'm also - well, I've been very curious thinking about other business models. Exactly what you just said a second ago in terms of a student experience. What other industry has a captive customer for four years? And all of those things that can go wrong in four years, like, and the things you just mentioned, I had a bad lunch. Right. I don't like the food on campus. The door was locked. I couldn't get into class. My portal didn't work. All of these things. Got a bad bill. It's so - yeah, financial aid. There's all these things that are so difficult to overcome. And they stick with the students with that. But over an incredibly long time, right? I was thinking about - like when we talk about experience, let's say going on a cruise, every interaction matters, but that's a finite piece of time - for two weeks, right? We try and sustain that for four years, which seems almost like an impossible endeavor.

And so maybe it's how do we overcome those? How do we think about those things? Part of what I do is talk to the students and the faculty that we're treating the college like an experiment, like a design project, right? We're changing things. And the idea - while it was, a student told me this and they were frustrated by it. They said that they were unhappy with the fact that students that were a year behind them were getting exposure to things that were so much better than they had. I said, no, that's a good thing.

Joe Sallustio: The same way we challenge - feels like a no-win for the students that don't get it though, right?

Karl Daubmann: But I said, you know, we ask you, we challenge you as a student to try things and to get outside your comfort zone. And if the institution's not willing to do that, we shouldn't ask you to do that. And that's why you're starting to see this change. And you benefited - someone that was two years ahead of you, hopefully said the same thing, that you had a different experience than they had. And so it's trying to craft that culture, trying to craft that experience. And for us as architects, it's also what the space is like, what the classroom looks like, and bringing a sense of maybe respect or appreciation for the space that the students inhabit every day as being part of that.

Joe Sallustio: Interesting. So how many programs do you have within your college?

Karl Daubmann: We have architecture, which is - we have about 700 students in our college. We have architecture, which represents maybe 65%.

Joe Sallustio: Wow. All online? Or combo?

Karl Daubmann: That's only the grads. It's combo. And so maybe about 100, 150 students that are online.

Joe Sallustio: That is amazing. And then a number of other design?

Karl Daubmann: It's graphic design, game design, interior design, product design, and transportation design.

Joe Sallustio: Wow. So the creative tech stack? How's the demand right now for the - I mean, because technology programs are in demand. I think AI makes them more in demand. Are you seeing, especially with something like game design, I'm just curious to know how that's going, because I interviewed the CEO of Urban Arts and the president of Hasbro Gaming about gaming, about game program design and gaming. It was really next level because I mean, Hasbro gaming, right? You think Monopoly, but they're into like Dungeons and Dragons. And that's like a multi-billion dollar gaming industry now. And they're saying, "Hey, look, we need game designers. This is the future of learning is gaming." Is it?

Karl Daubmann: There's an aspect to it for sure. And so we see both in game design, almost like a kind of connective tissue between the different disciplines within our college, because you can imagine, I remember a couple years ago talking to game design students, like, well, that game you just designed, you're in a space. Did you talk to an architect or an interior designer? And that sword that your character's wielding, did you talk to a product designer about that? And so there's a way that how we experience space, how we think about kind of leveling things up, how we think about progressing or any type of learning - game plays a huge role in that.

Joe Sallustio: Karl, I need to know, is there a job out there in the world of game design to be a video game tester, not actually design the games, but just to play them and get paid for it? Because this is my - this is my ideal job.

Karl Daubmann: Mine, too. I don't think so. That's what everybody has told me that that really doesn't exist.

Joe Sallustio: But I feel like I've got the PS5. I can just be - shows. Yeah, I could just play games all day and win. Right. But that's not - such is life.

Karl Daubmann: Well, one of our - Steve Mallory who teaches in game design talks about it like everyone likes to eat cake. And this is the thing a lot of students come to game design because they like to play games. Baking a cake is very different than eating a cake.

Joe Sallustio: So true. Talk about architecture a little bit because this program that you have - 65% of your students online, on ground but a lot online in a program that you - that many would go okay, I could see this being an online program. I'm not sure you know, you're going to have to dilute the quality of this program if you put it online. That's always something that I encounter as I talk to people in higher ed that somehow modality change means reduction in quality. How do you balance that with your faculty with students as you initiate change?

Karl Daubmann: It actually started with industry with us. And I remember five, six years ago before the pandemic, right? The pandemic maybe in both ways brought validity to online, but also maybe post-pandemic, a lot of places are trying to move back away from that and say, we're going to get back to our roots. But I remember talking to a colleague and they said, "My God, how can you teach architecture online? Outrageous."

Joe Sallustio: That was her?

Karl Daubmann: Yep. And I said, well, how about your practice, right? Your partner spends a portion of their time in another city. How do you communicate? Do you have consultants that are elsewhere? Do you have clients that are elsewhere? How does that work? Let me guess - you share files, you hop on a Zoom, you do these types of things. And I was like, this is exactly how we're teaching our students to operate in this kind of globalized, remote work type of economy.

Joe Sallustio: Why is it so hard to understand that? Because all jobs are like that. I mean, it's - I can't think of a job where you get out and you start working and somebody that you work with goes, we don't do anything online. We just don't do anything online. Everything is done in person. You'll never do anything - I mean, even - I mean, even in higher ed, as we work on campuses, most of us are having meetings on Teams or Zoom because it's - you save 15 minutes walking across campus, you know, so even we're doing it. Why is it so hard to grasp? Is it just we've always done it that way? Is it - what is it?

Karl Daubmann: I think it's part of that. And I've even been trying to imagine a scenario, right? Certainly from industry. That's how we've always done it. People that are in the position to maybe make those policies or drive that culture are still stuck in those ways. And so even, you know, at a major level, we had a recent conversation with our board around kind of the academic area. And one of the deans brought up the issue that there wasn't a student present at that meeting and not a lot of discussion about the students. So often we talk about organizational culture, we talk about policies, we talk about these large scale things, but trying to think about where the students are at, which comes back to a lot of what we've been talking about at the conference as well.

And so the students, you know, may not even think about those differences because they weren't exposed to it. The older I get as, many of us, which you're very young by the way, but you're getting older -

Joe Sallustio: Actually, you know, at dinner last night we were talking to someone about, well, we used to do that with dial-up and neither of us could remember the moment when we remember dial-up. But I don't remember like where I was living when I moved off of dial-up into something else. Right. Like what point are - like because technology moves so fast or it's moving fast now. So it's hard to think about when it moves slow.

Karl Daubmann: That and I think the older you are, the more exposure you have to those things. And with Moore's law and with technology changing at an exponential rate, the older you are, the more exposure you have to more technologies. And this, of the memory loss piece that comes with getting older, too.

Joe Sallustio: We don't need to talk about that. We have perfect memories.

Karl Daubmann: That can be productive that we forget about some things, actually selective, forgetting - fax machines like these types of things that our students have no, no, absolute no knowledge about.

Joe Sallustio: Yeah. Use a - tell a student to use a fax machine. Well, I think that would be a good test. What else do you want to say about Lawrence Technological University about your programs, the school, anything that you want to say? Open mic.

Karl Daubmann: Well, I mean, some of the things that we're to talk about on the panel this afternoon -

Joe Sallustio: Yes, we are in a panel together. So we'll have another podcast episode coming out for us.

Karl Daubmann: I think it's - you know, I like your title. I like that notion of experience design. So talking to students, trying to figure things out from seeing a decline in student attendance at our lecture series. Holding a focus group, when should we hold our lectures? So we move them from the nighttime to lunchtime, we provide pizza, we try and create activities around that. We're running an international travel program. So next week, I'm taking 20 students to Rome.

Joe Sallustio: Ooh, tough life you live in these days.

Karl Daubmann: But those students, some of them are online. And so the first time that they're gonna meet colleagues or a faculty member in person is gonna be in Rome.

Joe Sallustio: And you're doing that to give them extra - to give those students an opportunity to what? Just to build culture, to see architectural marvels?

Karl Daubmann: Yes. I mean, right. Rome's Coliseum. I mean, there's some architectural marvels there. And the even crazier part is that two years ago we went and we did a traditional like you're going to keep a sketchbook. Last year we had them imagining things using AI. So we did a travel book for Rome that doesn't actually exist around using generative AI. And so that's again, a moment where at LTU, we can infuse technology to think carefully about pedagogy, the way that we work, but to also kind of blow that wide open. So it's an international travel experience to an ancient city infused with generative AI.

Joe Sallustio: That's cool.

Karl Daubmann: Trying to find more and more moments where we find those kind of synergies between technology, education, changing business models, trends that are happening in the world and trying to be adaptable and nimble as it relates to that.

Joe Sallustio: I love it. And I'm glad to hear faculty, anybody that's a dean or faculty speak positively about adapting to and accepting generative AI into the way that they're teaching and learning, because it's going to happen. And it's about how we use it to enhance learning, not supplement, not blow it up or remove learning or make learning hacks for students, which they're going to find anyway with their own AI tools, but to be able to say, how are we going to use this to enhance the learning? And that's what's going to be one of the things that separates institutions from one another. What do you think about that?

Karl Daubmann: Absolutely. I love it. I've been using it for a while. And maybe I'll give two quick examples. One is that as an architect, the way that I used to work is that I would have to log into a desktop computer, bring up the software, set aside time to do all these things. I can use generative AI and be thinking about new ideas for buildings on my phone. And so this was the idea of taking students to Rome is that they were sketching, but then they were also taking pictures with their phone. Now we're blending those images that they're taking real time on the spot. They're on Discord where we're communicating and collaborating between those things. We're giving feedback over their shoulder, but we're giving them feedback on Discord as well. 

So that's one example. The other is that Dale Geier, our chair of architecture taught or teaches a history class a year or so ago. He said, don't use generative AI. Gave a take-home exam. And of course, students put the questions into ChatGPT.

Joe Sallustio: Right. So that created, we had to work that out.

Karl Daubmann: This year they gave that same take-home exam, but they had the faculty give the questions to ChatGPT and the students' job was to discern what was fact and what was fiction.

Joe Sallustio: Amazing as a way to have to validate.

Karl Daubmann: AI, which is the way that we have to work. And so I love even our history faculty are excited by this transformation.

Joe Sallustio: Even those that don't want to accept but are getting there. And love that, right? Because that's an acceptance of innovation that's happening around you. And I'm going to instead of looking at it like a threat to my own self, my own self-worth in my job, I'm going to use it to enhance the learning of my students. And I think that's where everything is going. And I appreciate people like you. Ladies and gentlemen, here he is. He's Karl Daubmann. He is the Dean of the College of Architecture and Design at Lawrence Technological University. Karl, it's been a pleasure having you on the podcast today.

Karl Daubmann: Thank you.

Joe Sallustio: I'm sure this conversation will continue. Ladies and gentlemen, you've just ed-uped.