797: EdUp Tribal Colleges & Universities (TCUs) Mini Series - with Dr. Cynthia Lindquist, President, Cankdeska Cikana Community College, & Dr. Sandra Boham, President, Salish Kootenai College

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Welcome back everybody. It's your time to ed up on the EdUp Experience podcast where we make education your business. Dr. Joe Sallustio here again, again, and again. As we're recording, I think we released our 780 or so episode over the last four years, marching hard to 800, which I really hope I don't hit until 2024, which is probably when you're going to hear this episode. It'll be probably in 2024 in January that you hear this. So happy new year to everybody.

Happy holidays, Merry Christmas, merry and happy whatever it is that you celebrate. But we hope that you have some New Year's resolutions that you are sticking to. Maybe you've already decided that you're not going to stick to them as you're listening to this episode. I do not do any New Year's resolutions because I only like to win. And I feel like by not setting those goals, I'm already achieving because I can't fail.

But no, no, no, I really don't set resolution goals. I try to, hopefully health is everybody's number one concern, whether it's mental, hopefully some physical along the way. As we, I don't know, we converge on this really funny industry that we work in called higher education, which has been under fire. And 2023 brought us lots of articles about this failing higher education industry we work in, that students don't value it anymore, that leaders can't lead it anymore. And I guess that only a little tiny bit of that is true. Students are still going to college. There are amazing leaders in and around higher education. And I think, in my opinion, I think that the path toward higher ed has never been clearer and never more needed than it is today. And we're going to find how needed higher ed still is by interviewing great people on this podcast. 

But before we start the interview, I have to bring on now my guest co-host who she'll be now a first time guest co-host. She was a guest already. So she's returning to spin the mic around and put others in the hot seat. And she planned this. She was like, how I should ask harder questions of my guests, right? More pressure to the guests. I said, absolutely. Ladies and gentlemen, here she is Dr. Erica Moore. She's Vice President for Indigenous Institutional Transformation at AIHEC. How are you, Erica?

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Thank you, Joe, for the introduction. I'm happy to be here. And just a reminder to the audience, AIHEC stands for the American Indian Higher Education Consortium. And when we interviewed you, I think you were like executive director, and now VP of everything.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: I wouldn't say that.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: I did start off as executive director and was promoted in July of this year.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Smart move. Smart move by everybody to promote Dr. Erica Moore. Erica, you reached out and said, I've got two amazing women that I think we should interview on EdUp. I said, we're going to do it right away. Because when Erica emails me, it's an immediate turnaround. I'm like, we're going to get them on right away.

Why did you bring, before we introduce them, why did you bring these two ladies to the microphone?

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Yeah, well, I follow your podcast and I just thank you, of course. And I just saw you at Middle States Conference and I thought our tribal colleges and universities are not spoken about at this level and we're doing amazing things.

And so when I was ready to reach out, I'll be honest, I hadn't heard back from the two presidents yet, but I knew I wanted. I was hoping that they would say yes. I have traveled with one of the presidents. I speak often with the presidents at the board meetings and conferences, and they always have such interesting and amazing stories to tell about their students and the work that's going on on their campuses. And I thought they'd be amazing to have on here so that we can have the public hear what's going on at the TCUs. And they are amazing leaders, also in favor of hearing from strong women and elders in our communities, and they both fit that bill. So I wanted to hear from them and I wanted you all to hear from them as well.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Amazing, and we really appreciate it. It is the diversity of perspective that makes the experience, in my opinion, the best podcast in higher education. And I say that selfishly, absolutely selfishly, but also true. I believe it's true. And we're going to bring our guests in one at a time. I'm going to let the audience know there is a solid possibility that I will mispronounce something here, but they'll correct me. I'm going to try to get it right. Ladies and gentlemen, my first guest.

Her name is Dr. Sandra Boham. She is the president at Salish Kootenai College. Sandra, welcome to an EdUp mic, how are you?

Dr. Sandra Boham: Thank you. And you got it, Salish Kootenai College. I have to be honest, I'm literally sweating right now, just so you know. We're located on the Flathead Indian Reservation in Montana. And I'm very happy to be here and have this chance to visit.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Awesome. Well, we're going to get to it in a second. Let me bring in my second guest, 50% of the way there on not making mistakes. We'll see how it goes. Here she is. Her name is Dr. Lindquist. She is the president at Cankdeska Cikana Community College. Right?

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: You got it. Good job.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Ladies and gentlemen, this episode has been concluded now. That's it. Cynthia, how are you? Welcome to an EdUp mic.

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: Hello, my friends. I am called Star Horse Woman and I am Dakota. Cankdeska Cikana is a Dakota word that means Little Hoop. And we are in Northeastern North Dakota. And my college will be celebrating its 50th anniversary next year. So we've been here. We've been here a while.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: It's amazing. Okay. Let's get right to you guys because this is just like the gravity and importance around this conversation. I'm already feeling it. Tribal colleges play such an important yet, I don't know, an important but not as prominent, maybe prominent, not as visual role as other colleges and universities, right? You know, colleges and universities, and I don't think the first thought that the average person has is tribal colleges and universities.

Why is it so important to get the word out, to celebrate, to talk about our tribal colleges and universities? And Cynthia, since I got you second, you go first on the question.

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: Well, thank you. I think it's linked to the whole thing about invisibility. And Native people continue to be invisible in this country, unfortunately. And social media has provided us a whole new platform relative to making us visible. Who are we? What do we do? We're still alive. We don't live in teepees. We're doing really, really good things. And it's through education that we are addressing that invisibility. We're also addressing the whole issue of all our needs that we have in Indian country. And we're also reinforcing identity. 

So tribal colleges and universities are greatly unknown, misunderstood in that the American Indian Higher Education Consortium, which is 50 years old this year, is our advocacy organization for the 34 tribal colleges and universities. We're in 16 states. We have 77 campus sites. We serve approximately 150,000 students, mostly Native. But about 10 to 15% of our students are non-Native.

We welcome anyone to come to our colleges and universities. And typically those people are our farm and ranch neighbors who live on or near the reservation or they've married into our families, or they could be tribal people who are not enrolled, which is a whole other symposium podcast. But we've been around a while and we truly believe in what we do. Tribal colleges are the community's resource for addressing our issues and making higher education available and affordable to our people and the people in our communities.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Amazing. First thing is, if you're listening to this, you've just learned, and I knew this from when Erica was on and had since lost the number, 34 tribal colleges. Somebody here is going, I know somebody's listening going, wow, I didn't think it was that many. Or maybe they're saying, I thought it would be a lot more. There's no context almost to it. Sandra, so this is such an important conversation, right? Because to Cynthia's point, Native American and tribal colleges do exist. They do play an important role. It's time to talk about it.

Dr. Sandra Boham: Yes. So everything President Lindquist said was right on. And I'm going to talk a little bit about the invisibility factor because it's something that we are challenged with all the time here at Salish Kootenai College because we don't do a really good job of sharing our story and our successes because we are very grounded in our cultural values. And so some of the marketing and public relations that most institutions see as just a normal course of business is seen sort of as bragging in our community. And we don't, that's not a value that we have. And so what we tend to do is go about the really good work that we do, but we don't say, look at what we're doing. And that's something that we're all trying to learn about how to navigate dominant society expectation and what we need to do to let people know about us, but staying grounded in our cultural frameworks. 

So two things that the tribal colleges do, and it's in almost every one of our missions, is around culture and language perpetuation. And I'm saying perpetuation, not preservation, because we're not trying to archive it, we're trying to revitalize it. We want it to be alive. We want you to hear our languages spoken in everyday existence. So if you go to the grocery store, we want you to hear those languages and not say, I think they have a language here, but nobody ever hears it. We have two languages on our reservation because we have three tribes that reside here. Two of them are Salish speaking and one of them speaks Kootenai. And so we offer both languages. 

The other part of it is around fulfilling the needs that our tribe has for essentially nation building. It's to create the people that we need within our communities, to educate our children, take care of our families, provide the governance and leadership, manage our natural resources, all of the aspects that you need within a thriving community. And so that's what we do. 

45 years ago when Salish Kootenai first started, and we have a whole unique history that we could go on for, I mean, you could take whole classes in it. But we were in the 70s under the Indian Self-Determination Act, we could begin to contract some of our programs and operate them ourselves, like our forestry and fisheries and social work and tribal health and those kinds of things. The problem was we didn't have any tribal people that had the credentials they needed to do that. We had a few, but not enough.

And so the college, which was founded in 1977, really moved that agenda forward. There were some brilliant visionaries in the tribe before Salish Kootenai College, don't get me wrong. And there were people that got educated, but few. And so when we came along, a lot of the people making the decisions on the reservation were non-tribal people who were not from here because they had the skills and the academic qualifications for those positions. 

Move forward 45 years later, and we're now a self-governance tribe. And almost all of our significant positions in all of those areas, in our healthcare, in our natural resources, in our tribal government, all of those decisions now are being made by tribal people who are from here because they were able to get their education through Salish Kootenai College. So it's an incredible and very important role that all of these colleges play within their communities.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: I'm going to ask one more question, Erica, and then I'm going to pass the whole rest of the episode to you and you can take it home. I got to ask this just from the and I'm going to make a disclaimer that as I ask this question, I am not trying to offend any group when I ask it.

As society has, over the last couple of years and COVID and all these things that have happened, you've seen lots of movements, the Black Lives Matter, you've seen a migrants crisis on the border of, you know, from South America, different groups, LGBTQ, advocating for themselves. And then you talk about invisibility for our nation's native people. Is there a feeling of, you know, what gives here? Like, what about us? Is it a we don't want any part of this? You know, or how does that dynamic work? Because our Native American people are obviously native, have been here for a very, very long time. And there does seem to be an oversight factor somewhere along the line. I don't know if I'm saying that right, or if I'm really asking a question. I'm Cynthia back to you. Am I making any sense? I'm almost asking, you know, is the invisibility factor created? Is it engineered? What do you think?

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: Well, okay. I wanted to make sure I unmuted myself. You know, that's a really good question and it can make me mad to some degree in that because it's like, is that our own fault? But no. It's the relationship that this country has with its indigenous people is complex, convoluted, and there are just, I'm sorry, there's just too many untruths. And American Indian, Alaska Native people have a very different and unique relationship with this country that's based on colonization. It's based on taking up the land and the settling of this country. And then it's rooted in treaties, treaty rights, treaty laws. 

And so when I speak, especially to non-Indian groups and I'm talking about the whole thing about our issues and the things we're trying to solve, people have got to understand that that history, that relationship is very, very different. And it's a political relationship. It's not race-based, it's political. Okay, so I get upset when somebody calls me a minority. And again, it's ignorance. People just don't know, don't understand. 

I have many friends at MSIs. And we love MSIs and we love our mainstream institutions and we partner with them because we have to. We have to get along. We have to collaborate to solve not just our problems, but the world's problems, the state's problems, because they're mutual. They're one and they're all of ours. 

So the tribal colleges and universities were formed because our people were not succeeding in mainstream. And our uniqueness is also tied into being chartered by our tribes. I only serve my community. I do not go to President Boham's reservation to recruit students. At the same time, anyone is welcome to come and attend. So if there are Salish or Kootenai people here in my community, they can come, they can attend my college and have the same benefits and support systems that any of my students have eligibility for. 

So Native people, we've lived through all of this. We know who we are. And President Boham touched on that other thing about humility. But within those values, we also were very, very patient. We're very forgiving. We're very generous because we like to share. For us, our concept of life and living in this world is sharing, is making sure everybody is taken care of within the context of the whole. And we learn that through our kinship values and systems, the family system and structures, but it extends. It extends outward to community, to the region, the state and that. And it also includes our relationship with Mother Earth. 

And so there's such wonderful common sense knowledge that comes from indigenous values and who we are. And we know who we are and that's there. And so that's the beauty of tribal colleges and universities and our work. It's reinforcing that identity, that cultural pride of who we are and what we know and bringing it forward and trying to live in these other worlds while not losing who we are.

You know, and sometimes it's a fine line and I'm very - I've been around a while so I'm an elder, I get to kind of say my mind and say my piece but hopefully in a good way. And hopefully again with data, with grounded data that comes from us about who we are, how we got here, how we need you to help us. And the other thing on that is we want to tell you how you can help us. Please don't have that Great White Father mentality. I know what's good for you. I'm the federal government and I come to help you. I'm sorry, we don't believe you. You know, and that. 

I mean, we're doing remarkable things in Indian country and through the tribal college system. We have both the American Indian Higher Education Consortium. We have the American Indian College Fund, which is our fundraising organization. And both entities, organizations are helping to raise our visibility about who we are, how we're doing it, and then having that accountability piece that goes along with it.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Last year, one year ago, almost, actually a year and a month, I had Angelique Albert on CEO for Native Ford Scholars Fund. And then Dr. Monte Randall from the College of Muscogee Nation, Manoj Patil from Little Priest Tribal College, and he co-hosted with me. There's a vibe that these institutions are growing in prominence and visibility. And Sandra, do you feel that same way about that question that Cynthia does and that visibility is like the ultimate importance right now?

Dr. Sandra Boham: You know, we are all gaining in visibility. I mean, when you think about higher education, that's what over 200 years old, some of our institutions in the United States and the oldest one of us is 50. How old is Diné? 52? We are babies in this realm, but we have done so much in such a short period of time. And I do think that as we have become more sophisticated and as we have addressed our growing pains, I mean, I think you're gonna hear a lot more from us and about us. 

The people that founded AIHEC were incredibly visionary. And what we did was we said, we're gonna bind together and we're gonna work as a group and not be pitted against each other, which is kind of how we were set up. So for people that don't know, in order to be a tribal college, you have to be at least 51% federally recognized tribally enrolled students, and you have to be chartered by a tribe. And so why I'm saying that is because it goes back to what President Lindquist said about political status. 

So we actually have a certificate on file that documents - they do it by blood, which is a whole other just crazy story. But it's much the way you would register a pedigree dog. When the child's born, you take the parents first certificates, you file them and it shows who's enrolled and how much blood and whether the dad is or not. And then it's combined and you're registered and you get this card and then you're in a federally recognized tribe, and that's how you gain your political status. 

So we really aren't like any other group in the country. If somebody is Black or Asian or Latino, they don't have to provide a card that proves it. They just are. The same with -

Dr. Joe Sallustio: That's crazy.

Dr. Sandra Boham: And so that's why we have an affinity for the people that are working towards their civil rights, LGBTQ and with the Black, we understand that fight, but it's a different fight than ours. And so when there are discussions around affirmative action and racial-based scholarships and admissions, we're not a race-based people, we're a political status people. And so that's why our conversations are a little bit different in that way. But we certainly advocate and have affinity for people who are trying to gain their civil rights in this country. 

The other thing to know about Indian people in this country is we're barely 1% of the population. And that is another challenge because as you look at many of the demographics that are published, we're the asterisk. You won't even find out anything about us. And so we are working very hard to elevate those positive aspects of ourselves because what has tended to happen with Indian people is that we focus on the deficit because you'll find us on all the lower levels of socioeconomic and indicators of wellbeing. We have higher rates of health disparity and income disparity and everything you want to talk about, that's a deficit. 

But on the other side of that, we are incredibly resilient and we are working to address those issues within our own communities. And so those things, as we elevate our communities, which we're doing, and which is why, as you look at some of our colleges, the programs that we have are very, like we have a nursing program here, a four-year baccalaureate nursing program. The reason we have it is because we know that we need to prepare culturally competent, medically trained nurses to address our health disparities. And we are one of the most successful institutions in the nation for graduating nurses that are American Indian. And I think second behind us is Oglala Lakota College in South Dakota.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Wow. Such an important designation. It's not racial, it's political. I'm learning a lot in this episode, which is amazing, because there's going to be probably between 500 and 1,000 people across higher education that listen to this episode. Now I get to pass it over to my guest co-host, who's been waiting patiently. She did send me a text and asked me to stop asking questions. I'm going to do that.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Stop talking so much. No, I'm just kidding. Well, I think I'm going to try to stick with the theme of moving away from the deficit. So we've talked about how we've got here, right? The historical context of colonization, forced assimilation, how that's impacted indigenous peoples within higher education. We've talked about how we're different or similar to other populations that have been at risk within this country. But I would like to talk about a more positive and more narrow view for both of you within your own respective TCUs. 

So what are you the most proud of that's happening on your campus right now? And what would you want the world to know about your students that are there, right? We are very focused on our students, not just in the classroom, but as human beings and how they go out into the world. And as you said, make it or bring back to our communities. So I will go with President Lindquist. And you can go first.

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: Tell them like it is. Gosh, gosh. How do you talk about our success stories? And we have many, we have many. So it's hard to pick isolated. But we recently were in the news here locally in North Dakota, Minnesota, South Dakota. So regional news for the upper Midwest in that we got a $900,000 grant from NASA. Surprise. Okay. And it's through a partnership my little college has with the University of North Dakota, which is about 100 miles east of where we are located. And through UND's biomedical engineering program and our advanced manufacturing program, my little college is going to be building a component for the spacesuits for the astronauts. How exciting. And who would have thought?

What's this little, how can this little college? Well, it is actually one of my students who kind of thought and conceived of some things in this partnership and relationship. But, and we have all kinds of stories. I can now point to tribes and social service programming here on my reservation. And I haven't looked at the data recently, but about maybe about a year ago or so, I think there was 18 or 20 positions for tribal social services. 18 of those are my graduates. So in my college is that the associate degree granting, but they have bachelors, BSWs from UND because of a two plus two partnership. And of those 18 who are my graduates with the bachelors from UND, I think there's six or seven of them who are now on master's pathways. 

So we can point out where our graduates are. They're over there, here. That's my grad. That's my grad. The other one I'm really, really proud of that I still tout is that we had our tribe's first civil engineer in 2015 who works for Tribal EPA, Environmental Protection Agency programming for the Spirit Lake Tribe. And that was through a partnership with North Dakota State University down in Fargo, which is about three hours southeast of me. And so these are tribal people who are doing amazing things and they've gotten to fields that they never knew that they could do or be part of and we help them to get there, to get to that. 

But we partner well with our tribes. We know tribal employment and the needs of our communities. And you have to understand education for my community is still, it's not as bad as when I became a president 20 years ago, but we still have a lingering suspicion about education where it was used as a tool to punish our people and boarding school, that whole thing. And so my community still struggles with, I don't know about education. We don't trust it. It's a bad thing. They're going to hurt me. They're going to punish me. They're going to force assimilation. 

And so through the tribal colleges, like, no, no, no. Education is a good thing. Education is going to help us. It's your own personal health and well-being, your pathway. And then for the tribe and the community, it's that pathway towards succeeding. So kind of covered a lot of different things that way, but we have tremendous stories in Indian country from the tribal colleges.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: That is so exciting. You never know when Joe's sounds are just going to pop off. President Boham, do you have exciting things going on on your campus? And what would you want the world to know about your students?

Dr. Sandra Boham: Oh my gosh. So I am in constant awe of our students. And you know, it was really interesting because during COVID, we did something that kind of shocked people. And at first, I think our board thought, what the heck, the president's gone crazy. Because I said, we're not going to recruit, we're not recruiting any students. Everything is too unstable. Students come, they try to go to school, they get sick, their kids get sick, they aren't successful. They try again and of course, COVID did a lot of really good financial resource support, but it didn't change the financial aid rules. So those clocks kept ticking. And I said, I feel like it's not ethical to do that. 

And so we said, we're not gonna do that. And then we had a whole lot of conversations with our students about what they needed to be successful. And we said, we're gonna focus intently on what makes our students successful from what they said. And we shot our retention rates through the roof and we increased our graduation rate. And it wasn't rocket science that they told us. What they said was we knew that food insecurity was a thing and they said, you know, we really could use that. And of course, if you've been shopping, you know that food is expensive. So we implemented a food pantry, that simple. 

And then we also increased access to mental health for everybody, faculty, staff, students, their families, and they could access it 24/7 online, or they could see face-to-face appointments. And that had a very significant impact as well. Because we don't want to talk about how hard it is to be a student and take care of children or worry about your bills. And so the other thing that we did was we really normalized and said there should not be a stigma to say I need help. And so we did that and that had a huge impact. And that was our students that told us what they needed for us to do for them. And then they accessed and used the changes that we made and have gone on.

The other thing that I have to say is we've really been working on growing our own because not every, I'll just tell it how it is. The dating pool here is very shallow if you're young. And so as I recruit young faculty people and they're 30, they come here and they go, this place is not happening. There's nobody to date. There's nothing going on. So they don't stay. But if you're working with people who are already here, then you don't have to deal with that quite as much. And so we really started working with developing our students all the way through their bachelor's because we offer bachelor's degrees in addition to our two year programs, our one year certificate, our workforce certifications, and then we have two master's programs. 

And we build them, we try to find scholarships and connect them with other institutions to build that capacity within the college. So we have a lot of our former students who are now employed here at all levels. Some of them are faculty people, some of them are student support. I have four out of the seven board members that are here that went to school here. And so, it makes a big difference about not having mission drift and knowing what our community needs and then getting that investment back into the community. 

So we have a faculty person who just recently was awarded a pretty significant grant to create a climate hub. And so she's been working on that and her assistant that she has is a graduate of ours. And so they're looking at really exciting things around solar and geothermal and all kinds of work. We also just recently got awarded as part of a consortium planning with the tech hub. And so that's another aspect. And of course, that's building a lot more workforce and across the spectrum, everything from electrical to modeling in computer predictive stuff. So, and our students are involved in every piece of that. 

And then of course our nursing students that are, they're working everywhere in the United States and they are excellent. And then our teachers as well. And Cynthia has this program and so do we where we're really working to develop pre-K, head start, early childhood teachers because those children are so critically important and those teachers are important. So, you know, our students are working with those teachers and becoming those teachers. And so there's a lot going on here. I mean, I could probably talk for two days about all the amazing work. 

And then of course, you met, I probably - he's a CIO and I can't remember what the CIO stands for in our computer IT department around cybersecurity and all of the work that goes on that I can't talk proficiently about with technology. And then of course building our computer science program next to it, which we have an amazing person here that is directing that and working with the college fund. And that's inspiring students all the way into middle school and high school because we were involved trying to get kids excited about what these programs are, what career options exist. And those are our students talking to those kids.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Keep going Erica. So I'd like to touch on, since you mentioned matchmaking challenges. And I know that we're just talking about that, but I think where our tribal colleges and universities are situated are isolated areas. So outside of the dating pool, it can be very difficult to bring folks into our tribal communities. And then that's obviously why you mentioned we're trying to grow our own. So you do not need to go outside of the community. So just sparked a question. I wanted to know if you feel like you face different challenges as leaders on college campuses, your respective institutions, than other college leaders or institutional leaders are experiencing on their campuses. Do you feel that they have different challenges, I guess, unique challenges?

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: Of course, because in and of itself, just being rural, isolated, let alone then on a reservation. And then this tribal college thing. What's a tribal college? You know, whatever. I just - we just recruited a highly, highly qualified English and faculty member who's moving to North Dakota from Mississippi. And I'm still shaking my head. Because if you don't know, North Dakota, we're kind of famous for our weather and our lovely winters and that. But he's been adjuncting for us for the past couple of semesters. We're just, he's very well credentialed. From what we've been learning from our students, he's a really good teacher instructor. So things happen. Things happen. 

And again, I think it takes like-minded people who really get - and education is such a marvelous world because we obviously we believe in what we do and who we are as educators you know and there's such - and I - and just lots of times I look back on my own journey and getting my doctorate in the trials and tribulations of you know the bachelor's the master's the doctor at that pathway and who am I and where do I want to go well I never aspired to be a president I - what? Huh? I was asked by my tribe to come home to lead this institution because of my other work and whatever in that. 

But education in and of itself is such a good thing. And it continues to be. It bothers me that in this country that we're dissing it so much. For me, every person in this country should have the first years of college. No questions asked. It should be K through 14. Just stop it, just do this. Providing that access because education means different things. And I know and understand that. And education is not just a terminal degree, but as a president, I'm sorry, that's what I want for all my students. But it opens other doors. Relationships, communications, finding your passion, your dreams in that.

Through the tribal college world, we have got just phenomenal things going on and that access and again, that availability of who we are and what we do. And we really welcome those like-minded people, you know, and we find them, we find them. And yeah, we like to grow our own, you know, because we're a tribal college and we should have more tribal people here and that, but yeah, we also like getting along, working together, collaborating, partnering and isn't that what not just education but what being a human being is all about?

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Absolutely. I think I have something that kind of goes off of that. You so often in this work folks ask me, well, what could we do to support TCUs as, you know, just non-tribal members or non-Indigenous professionals within higher education? So I would love to hear from the two of you and we can start with President Boham. Where would you like to see support or where can your non-Indigenous colleagues and peers advocate for us as tribal people, tribal colleges and universities? What could that look like? So often we are doing the heavy lift ourselves. And we didn't get here by ourselves, right? Like this education system wasn't created by us or for us. So I think we all, like President Lindquist said, we welcome collaborating and support from other individuals. So where would you like to see that advocacy or how can those peers advocate for TCUs and or our students?

Dr. Sandra Boham: Yeah, boy, this is a question that I've thought about quite a bit. So I've been in higher education since 1979. I started as an adult ed teacher. And I like President Lindquist. I think that it's important that every person in this country who graduates with a high school diploma or who gets a GED or a high set or whatever the equivalency is, that they have a choice about what their next steps will be. And then it's not pre-described for them and, you're only capable of this or you're only capable of that. I think it's really important for students to have choice. And I know that because I've seen so many students who walk through our door here, who firmly believe that they're not good enough, who discover they bought the wrong story and that they really are amazing and can do whatever it is they set their mind to. And I'm not gonna set those limitations for them. And so I believe that's critically important. 

I think right now part of the conversation around why college isn't worth it is really being driven by business. We do need skilled trades. There is no question about it. But again, it's gotta be a choice for those students who choose those skilled trades. I would be a horrible welder. I'm just gonna tell you that. I did not realize the hand-eye coordination that goes with welding. It is pretty high up there. If you gave me a torch, get out of the way, because I'd probably burn the house down.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: I am glad you found that out before you hurt anybody.

Dr. Sandra Boham: I know, but you know what? I'm pretty good at what I do, and somebody else can be a welder. And that's great. And I'm going to do whatever we can do to support them to be a welder. And the message about college is too expensive. And you should, if you do this, you can make this much money or that, and you can make this much money. What they don't tell you is to be a carpenter and make the amount of money they're saying, you have to have training. And training is called higher education when you go past high school.

So it's a disservice and it's low income communities differently than it is communities who already have that pathway and understanding of higher education, who've been given the map by their families and they're not first gen anymore and they can navigate that. The students that don't come from that, they don't know. And those are the ones that are getting this message of you can't afford it, it's not worth it. And so I think our colleagues need to help reframe that. 

The other thing is the business is really pushing that agenda, but they're not putting money into the colleges. They're saying, we want you to train all these really technical workforce skills, figure out how to pay for it. And anybody who's done vocational training, as they used to call it, I think it's called career technical education now, the startup for those programs, the investment in the equipment and the instructors is significant. They're the most expensive programs that I have except for nursing.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: That's a fact.

Dr. Sandra Boham: It is a fact. And then the other thing that they can advocate for us is equitable funding. And I'm not even gonna get into that because what people start to do is to compare us to other minority programs that get different levels of funding. We're not interested in taking away from them. We're interested in having our own equity investment. So I'm happy that other people in our... I'm losing my words. Other people within this, other groups are getting adequate funding, but we are still not. So advocacy along that line. 

And then the other thing is, is partner with us. So if you're in an institution and you have a program and you're thinking of a grant and you know that it's gonna meet a particular need, talk to us. See if we wanna maybe partner with it and help us grow our capacity. Because we don't want to just work in isolation. We want to work because we also want our students to have that choice to stay and work within our communities or to go and work in other communities to learn things that they can bring back in the future. But what often happens with partnerships is that someone will say, I have this great idea and they write this grant and then they go, it would probably be better if we added an Indian group to it. You want a partner, but then there's no resources for us. And so when I say partner, I mean full partner. So advocacy around our funding, around the messaging around college, and then partnerships. That's what we could really use from our higher ed community.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Really good stuff. Erica, you have any more burning, burning questions for the ladies here?

Dr. Erica J. Moore: I guess, I mean, I've heard before, you know, I think both of you mentioned this. There is this general thought when folks do know that TCUs exist, very antiquated stereotypical ways of thinking, like we get free education, we get casino money, everyone gets per cap. Why should you have a college and not us? And I heard a response before, when referring to those issues and someone once said, our students paid the cost with the blood through the blood of our ancestors. Right. And so I, I wonder what does that mean to you? When you think of the historical context, the forced assimilation boarding schools, we're seeing our babies being brought home to tribal communities in the thousands from the unmarked graves. What does that quote, I suppose, mean to you? And do you feel that it's accurate? And go with whoever wants to start.

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: That's one heck of a question. You said to give them a doozy, so I'm giving it.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: It was a doozy. 

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: Yeah, it is. And we probably need a couple more podcasts to cover it all. But, you know, I mean, and for me it's truth, telling the truth about how this country was colonized and settled and the displacement of American Indian, Alaska natives. And unfortunately that truth is buried and it gets hard. I've had my moments where I'm sitting with legislators or congressional people and you have to bite your tongue. And then I have moments, especially as I mature, where it's like, I'm not gonna bite my tongue anymore. I'm gonna go up and slap him. 

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Please do, no, just kidding.

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: I mean, because how could a selected official who's supposed to know something, but controlling the purse strings or controlling the legislation or whatever, be so ignorant when they have not even done the research or have the staffers do the research? We've got really good data and information. We know what's happened to us. And sometimes, yeah, we want confrontation. We want anger and whatever, and to throw it out there and whatever. But the reality of it is we know how this stuff works. 

And yeah, it was my great-grandpas and grandmas who we lost. It's the land, the minerals, all of that that was taken. And then the displacement and that again that that whole story is not told. The history books don't tell the truth. I'm sorry. You know, and and then this day and age we're starting to tell that truth and people don't like it. Example, I'm going to give you right now. We have riders going from Crow Creek, South Dakota to Mankato, Minnesota. For the Dakota 38 plus two. The largest mass hanging under President Abraham Lincoln, 1862. 

And these riders ride, unfortunately, we, again, we've got unusual weather right now going on here in the Dakota, but typically they're riding in the blizzards and 20 below and all this and that, but they're making this three, 400 mile track and they stop along the way, that farm and ranch neighbors on that pathway to ride horses to get to Mankato. And inevitably those farm and ranch families welcome them in, they're kind, but they're like, who are you? What are you Indians doing out here? And so they sit and they talk about, they tell them the story about what they're doing and why. 

And inevitably the farm and ranch families who are non-native are like, how come I don't know this? How come I wasn't told this? And especially as you get closer to Mankato, Minnesota, those, and the Minnesota people, they're like, we were never taught this. We didn't know this. We didn't know this happened. You know, and so it's the displacement of the Dakota people. And then this, this sanctioned mass execution by the United States government. And then our people, that's how, that's how my people, how we're here in Fort Totten, North Dakota, when we, when we came from Minnesota, but it's, it's, telling the truth our way, our truth, you know, and having, you know, and it's all documented, it's there and people don't like us digging that all out and, you know, but, but we do this like the ride. It's to bring that attention. 

But it's really, again, bottom line is about education. You don't know what you don't know. And to address the disparities, the inequities and all that, it's only through education. It's one person at a time. Dealing with another person at a time or having these wonderful things, not called podcasts, to spread the word and to share those stories. And there's all kinds of information out there right now. Good information.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: So I think we're coming to an end. I think President Lindquist, did an amazing job responding to that difficult question. I'll toss a really easy one, but a one that would be great to end on for President Boham. We just went through the first 50 years, the first circle of the tribal college movement. How do you envision the second circle of the tribal college movement? What would you like to see for AIHEC and the TCUs?

Dr. Sandra Boham: Well, it's kind of exciting and AIHEC itself is going through some real interesting change. A lot of the long-time presidents are retiring. So there's this whole new class of young presidents, meaning new presidents that have been in the role for less than five years. And so as we look at what we've done in 50 and the accomplishments that we've made and then looking forward to what are the next 50 gonna be like and trying to envision what the future is gonna be. And of course, we all kind of had a trajectory that got knocked off path these last three years. So it's now trying to envision what this world is gonna look like and how this world is gonna be and what our communities are gonna need to become vibrant and thriving. 

And we've always had kind of a focus on the people and the environment. And I think we're gonna see some really innovative approaches to that that are gonna come out of tribal colleges that you'll start to see being adopted by mainstream companies and organizations within the country. Because within our worldview, we're not separate from the world. We're not separate from the environment. We're not separate from the plants and the animals and the earth. We're part of it. And if you don't take care of it, you can't take care of yourself. And I think the rest of the world is starting to actually understand that because they just got a wake up call. And so I'm excited about it. And I think we're gonna really see growth and sophistication from our schools. I do.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Well, this has been amazing. I'm having this moment where I go, gosh, it would be cool to have this EdUp Experience little mini series hosted by Dr. Erica Moore, sponsored by AIHEC where she interviews college presidents in tribal colleges over 10 episodes. I get to just hit the sound effects, but not any do any of the hosting. Let's do it. Let's do a little mini series. Highlight our tribal colleges out there and the work that's being done. Offer on the table, Erica. You don't have to accept or deny live here on the EdUp Experience. You can think about it. 

But this has been an amazing episode. I want to thank you guys for bringing in some real talk. That's what we want to do here on EdUp. Say it like it is. A couple times you guys said I got to just say it like it is. That's what we want you to do. Say it like it is. People are going to hear it like you say it. And this is a way we can help get the message out about our amazing tribal colleges here at the EdUp Experience. Thank you both. Ladies and gentlemen, my first guest, while they didn't come in any particular order, Dr. Sandra Boham, president of Salish Kootenai College. 

Dr. Sandra Boham: Yes, two times, two out of two. 

Dr. Joe Sallustio: But don't get too excited. I have to do the other one. And second guest, ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Cynthia Lindquist, the president of Cankdeska Cikana Community College. Sweating that. Dr. Erica Moore, my amazing extra special guest co-host, thank you for bringing these amazing presidents to the microphone. Ladies, did you have fun while you got to talk about your tribal college? At least we had a little bit of fun along the way, right?

Dr. Sandra Boham: We did, we did. It's good stuff. Good work.

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: Thank you also, please. Thank you so much for what you're doing to wake up the world relative to education. And I'm just, so glad I know about you now.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Yeah. Absolutely. Can I give a space for any native language? Any outro in a native language here?

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: You want us to say goodbye in our native language?

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Yes.

Dr. Cynthia Lindquist: There's no goodbye. We don't have a goodbye.

Dr. Sandra Boham: I say. Yeah, normally I would just say Tai Gui as in good day, like yeah, greeting or goodbye or ha-home. Thank you.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: All right, well, we want to give the space for it. And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, an amazing episode of EdUp. You've just EdUpped.