875: EdUp Tribal Colleges & Universities (TCUs) Mini Series - with Dr. Celeste R. Townsend⁠⁠, President, ⁠California Indian Nations College⁠, & ⁠Manoj Patil⁠, President, ⁠⁠Little Priest Tribal College

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Welcome back everyone. It's your time to Ed Up on the Ed Up Experience podcast where we make education your business. Hi, Maltia. Good morning. I'm Dr. Erica Moore and I'm the host of this special mini-series on Ed Up, highlighting tribal colleges and universities and their innovative leaders. Almost three years ago now, I was interviewed for Ed Up as a guest and eventually I was asked to be a co-host and now I am hosting this mini-series where we get to talk to all our amazing tribal college leaders. 

For those of you who have been listening in or just joining us, we are now on our fourth episode. We have spoken with presidents from Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Alaska, Michigan, and today we'll be speaking with presidents from Nebraska and California. But before I do, I'm going to bring in my co-host and I'm going to allow her to introduce her amazing self before we bring our guests on.

Amber Morseau: Hello, good day everyone. My name is Amber Morseau. I'm a Pokagon Band citizen of the Potawatomi Nation here in Michigan. I am so pleased to be joining Dr. Moore here in this edition of Ed Up and to interview two of our tribal college presidents. We have a lot of good questions for you all today, so I hope you're excited and as ready as we are. Today we have our presidents from California Indian Nations College and Little Priest Tribal College. Very exciting because California Indian Nations is actually a newer TCU that's going to be joining us. And then Little Priest has just celebrated their 25th anniversary this past year. So we're very excited and very honored to have you all here. And yeah, let's get to know each other a little bit more. President Patil, would you like to introduce yourself?

Manoj Patil: Hi, thank you, Dr. Moore, Amber, for having me on this Ed Up Experience podcast. I'm Manoj Patil, President of Little Priest Tribal College. I joined Little Priest in 2018 as Vice President of Academic Affairs. Then in November 2019, I was made the interim president and then moved on to the full permanent position. So I'm pretty sure you have more questions for me, so I'm going to stop here. But thank you again for having us.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: That's wonderful. President Townsend?

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: Good morning and thank you. My name is Celeste Townsend. I'm from Riverside, California. I am a Gidutikad Paiute from Fort Bidwell Indian Community. I thank our creator and I thank you, Dr. Moore and Amber for having us here. Thank you, President Patil for being here. And I just hope that we have a great morning of discussion. I've been with California Indian Nations College when it was a discussion back in 2015, before we were even created. I was asked to preside and I turned the position down twice, but at the third time by the founder, I promised I would not let her down and see it to fruition. 

So as a discussion in 2015, I agreed and in 2017 the board of trustees hired me as the interim president. In 2019 I was awarded the position of president and CEO. So I have been here since ground zero and we are in our sixth year and are growing rapidly. So thank you.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: I am definitely going to ask more later about why you turned it down, but we're going to circle back. That's maybe a nosy question. I like to just start off with the first question I like to ask both presidents and we can have President Townsend go first. Why don't we start off talking about what you're most proud of at your institution and what would you want the world to know about your students? And I think this is going to be really unique for both of you considering where you're at in the tribal college movement. So please talk to us about that President Townsend.

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: Most proud of of course is our students. I think just in it being the table discussion back in, you know, for two years, 2015 through 17, trying to get partnerships and people to invest not just themselves, their bodies, their minds, their financial support. There was a lot of resistance because of the mistrust in educational systems for American Indian people. But also the demise and the loss of accreditation by DQ University back in 2003. The questions we received were, you know, what can you do that they didn't do? There was also California Tribal College that started back in 2009, I believe, and they asked, you know, are you part of them? Why are you any different? How are you different from them? 

And I think, you know, without discrediting these other institutions, we're coming with a vengeance. We want higher education, a rigorous higher education for our students in our community. And we want to make a difference. I think leadership, you have to know the ins and outs. I've been in education for over 30 years. I worked at Sherman Indian High School with leadership, participated in every board meeting since my inception. And I think I've learned from some of the best and working with Indian students throughout my career. Then from there, I went to UCR and I had that longing for my Indian community, but still had ties and that's how I got reintroduced to this amazing college. 

I think our students, I couldn't be more proud of the success of our students. It continues to grow and every day I'm amazed. I hate referring to them as products of California Indian Nations College, but in a sense they are. I couldn't be more proud. I think I even get emotional when I see the difference from when they started to when they're graduating. One of the women who, well two out of my four that graduated in 2019, one of them just started her master's or her graduate program to get into her doctorate. Another one is going to be hooded on June 1st with her doctorate. So I couldn't be more proud.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: That is amazing. I think I was able to meet one of them when I was there in October. And I will say, you're right, like just listening to the students share their stories during that week, but you also had like elders and community members. And I wonder, just as a follow-up question, because you mentioned there used to be a tribal college in the state of California, and they lost accreditation, unfortunately. There was something you all discussed when I came to visit that I thought is sort of unique from the other TCUs in that state. You have hundreds of tribes, but now you're going to be the only tribal college that's currently a member of AIHEC and going to have candidacy with accreditation. How was that? How were you able to do that? How are the tribes working together to see that come to fruition? Typically it's one tribe charters or, you know, there's a few tribes in one state, but the landmass in California is huge. And so there's so many more nations. How did that work out?

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: I think one of the first things I did back in 2020 was I started a tribal college coalition of California because we are still in a sense emerging. One of the caveats is there's zero funding for any emerging tribal college and working with these others, reached out to them. CTC or California Tribal College reached out to us back in 2017 and we met them in San Diego at one of the conferences and have since seen the changes and have tried to partner with them to show them, you know, what we're doing doesn't necessarily mean it's right, but there's room and space for more than just one, more than just four tribal colleges. 

Since then, DQ University reinstated their board and they're looking at coming back. So we're proud of that too. We want all of these colleges to succeed. Then there's Kumeyaay Community College, KCC, which is located in Rancho San Diego. They were an immediate branch off of DQ when DQ closed. And KCC, again, you know, the funding does not allow them, the lack of funding does not allow an institution to grow. And this is something that we've all been stating is how do we bring awareness to the state, you know, indicating that there is a need and this is our land and we need to be a budget line item on the state's budget. 

So we've been taking that stand and it's a huge project that when you have these starting colleges with only three or four employees, it's almost impossible. You need that funding. And getting the tribes to support it, there's that misunderstanding, misconception that all tribes are gaming, that all gaming tribes have funding. And we all know, if you know, there is no free education, there is no free medical, there is no free housing. This is what the tribes do to sustain their tribal citizenship.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. President Patil, could you talk to us about what you think is what you're most proud of? And I know you have been collecting awards, President Patil, you and your campus. So celebrating 25 years and talk about what that looks like for you and why you're most proud.

Manoj Patil: Again, thank you for having us. It's a great opportunity to share the success and the institutions' achievements. So most proud, of course, is the celebration of 25 years. Little Priest Tribal College was a part of Nebraska Indian Community College back in the days. And in 1996, we parted and the Winnebago Tribe chartered its own tribal college. So we are one of the 35, based on whom we ask, maybe 37 and all those things, tribal colleges. Like many tribal colleges, Little Priest went through a lot of turmoil in the past, leadership changes nonstop. But after 25 years, I'm proud to say that we have stabilized pretty much in every sector of the institution, accreditation, leadership stability, employee stability. 

We just celebrated 25 years, as I mentioned. It was a big community event attended by more than 400 people. Dr. Moore, you're one of the attendees. I'm very happy to have you on our campus and celebrate with you all. Next thing is we also have doubled our enrollments since I took the presidency.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Oh wow, I didn't realize that's amazing.

Manoj Patil: Yeah, have, when I joined it was 113, now we have 210. Well, almost, close to double, I would say. So we have doubled the number of programs after I joined, doubled the number of enrollment, doubled the number of graduates. And so, doubled the annual budget. As we speak in front of my eyes, I can see a new building. The first, I call first real building. It's getting constructed for $6 million. Science building. It's gonna be the tallest building on the reservation.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Oh my goodness. You're already on the hill and put a 40 feet on top of it.

Manoj Patil: So makes it the tallest. 

Dr. Erica J. Moore: What's taking place in that building, in this tallest building?

Manoj Patil: It's a, we call this a science building. It still has to be named by the board of trustees. We have two new labs at the third floor.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Oh, exciting.

Manoj Patil: Three classrooms in the second floor and a newly built student lounge at the first floor, tutoring center, counseling center in the first floor. So it's a 12,500 square footage. Another proud thing I want to share is something many people don't know. Little Priest has never raised a single dollar in the private foundations, ever.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Wow.

Manoj Patil: This year, raised, last year I raised a million dollars.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: That is so amazing.

Manoj Patil: So that one million dollars is going to Science Building. We're using some of the COVID relief funds to, you know, add onto it. So it's a total six million dollars. Next March, we'll be moving in. Construction is really progressing and we plan to have big celebration. A lot of foundations from Omaha are watching us now. You know, we get recognition. 

The next thing I'm proud of is data culture. When I joined as vice president, we didn't do and had the IR office. So that was one of the criteria I proposed to my president at the time that without the IR office, I may not join Little Priest. And six months later, he told me to take it on myself. So I created IR office. We hired Kavya. He's now the director of institutional effectiveness. From data analysts, the data culture is just in a completely different league. Everybody used to talk from their hips, you know, I feel like this opinions, nothing concrete data evidence, data culture. Now everything's database at Little Priest. Nobody talks without bringing the data. And our first thing we ask is, where did you get this data from? And if they're like, no, I didn't get this data, I feel like it, then we usually kind of start the conversation right there. Like, okay, great, you have ideas, but back it up with data. So that culture shift is my, I say is a big thing. 

Since I've taken over, we have a new IT building, a new modular dorm. It's like a big house we got from the Winnebago tribe. And now the $6 million science building is happening. We renovated our parking lot. We are renovating our auditorium. It's just probably, again, I've been here six years now and people who have seen it all, the tough times, they tell me this is the best they ever have seen. So don't wanna jinx it, but definitely I see myself, even from the six years I've seen, the college is not even recognizable.

And of course, one of the things President Townsend did mention the word, which I wanted to reiterate here is this is all for our students. And we have a strategic plan and I don't know if you can see it on the background, back wall here, the student success is right in the middle. And we don't want to just say it in piece of paper, we actually make it happen. We have free tuition for the last four years and we plan to do it at least four more years, if not six more years.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Wow. Yeah, free tuition for all students.

Manoj Patil: Native and non-native students. Then we have free counseling, free tutoring. And then we have made agreements with local colleges like Wayne State College, Briar Cliff University, and Bellevue University where our students go to these four-year schools free of tuition as well. So I know you said, what is the one thing I'm proud of? Unfortunately, there's not one thing. There are many things I'm proud of, but I think the main thing is to see next month when our students walk on the stage. And now we are seeing the highest number of students walk across the stage and then transfer to the four-year schools, then graduate from four-year schools. And actually they're coming back. So one data I want to present in the last three years, 12 Little Priest Tribal College grads, 13, sorry. 13 Little Priest Tribal College graduates who have gone to Wayne State College, all 13 graduated from Wayne State, 12 have come back to work on the Winnebago Tribe, and one is working in the neighboring tribe.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Wow, that's amazing.

Manoj Patil: So the circle is, there's a closing of the loop happening in terms of student success as well.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Before I pass off to Amber, I just wanna say President Patil is known for the data. Anytime my team is going into a meeting with you, I'm like, cannot say anything anecdotal. You must have the data. He's going to ask all the number questions. So I, but they inform your decisions and clearly you're making some really good choices. So you gain respect with your colleagues that you're not talking on your own. You're like, yeah, I've been in higher ed for 22 years. Yes. I've seen it all.

Manoj Patil: But you don't gain credibility, you don't gain respect from your colleagues when they think, oh, we should do this because I feel it is. But like, for example, everybody is asking me, why did we renovate parking lot for half a million dollars? I said, it's been 40 years, parking lot. And we have 10 people fall in the last four years because it was an ice rink, including me, by the way. So there was a personal touch to that as well. So I said, I don't know what else other evidence you need that we need this. And I contacted community members and like, hey, are you happy with the parking lot? And nobody wants to come in when it snows here. So when we started digging in first day, the crud we were seeing, the pipelines are all rusted and broken and what was seeping in. So even there as well, we brought data into, again, as you know, Dr. Moore, I know it can be qualitative or quantitative data we bring in, but somehow it's based on evidence and that culture is seeping in, takes time, but it's seeping in.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: It could have been the data or it could have been watching their president slide across, we're not going to make that decision, but I'm going to pass off to Amber. Go ahead, Amber, you can ask your question.

Amber Morseau: Well, President Patil really kind of answered or must have been reading my mind or something really answered a lot of the questions that I had kind of planned for this. But I wanted to ask you both because you're going to have differing perspectives as an emerging TCU and then as a TCU that is already engaged in these transformative efforts that are happening in Indian country and Indian education.

So my question is, what does transformation look like in your community, in your campus community? President Patil, I know that you really shared a very in-depth discussion of some of those transformative efforts that you have made on your campus to make your campus what it is today and to continue to encourage students to walk this path of education.

What does that mean to your community? How are you starting to see some of that community growth that is coming out of those efforts that you all are making? And then President Townsend, if you could talk about how transformative efforts as an emerging tribal college and how you're starting to see that impact in your community and from your campus as well.

Manoj Patil: Great question. So one of the biggest intangible successes we are having is the buy-in from the entire community, the tribal council, that post-secondary education is not unreachable. Post-secondary education is reachable and is needed, it's needed for everybody. So two weeks back, tribal council made a motion that they are gonna help Little Priest Tribal College president to work with their lobbying agency at the state of Nebraska to get state funding. President Townsend mentioned that, made a comment on that one, that state funding. So in Nebraska, there are two tribal colleges in the big state of Nebraska, which is only 10 miles away from each other. Both, we don't get state funding. We get very minimalistic state funding. Let me put it this way. But is that fair?

No, it's not fair. So last December at the tribal council annual update, I told the tribal council members about my concern and they were so receptive that they made a motion two weeks back that, you know what? We want to help Manoj. We want to help Little Priest. And they made a motion. So their legal council is going to work with us and with the state lobbying agencies. We already had a first meeting. Yeah, we already had the first meeting.

So that's an intangible success many people don't realize. That's what is transformative is people are understanding the value of post-secondary education when the national norm is why should we have post-secondary education? Well, I don't know about others, but I can guarantee that in Indian country at the tribal college level, post-secondary education is the way out. Poverty can be removed or eradicated if not completely to a certain degree with education. Education is a powerful tool. So we are giving that access. So college access, I call it as college access and success is what we're providing and in a transformative way. 

And another point, many times I don't bring it up, but it's pretty crucial. When I was a vice president, when I joined here, the number of credit hours required to graduate at Little Priest was one of the highest in the entire nation.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Wow.

Manoj Patil: Yeah, for example, early childhood education was 81 credit hours for an associate degree. 

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Wow.

Manoj Patil: Now, that was my biggest project I undertook in the first semester I joined here. Within eight months, we started bringing down now almost all are up to close to 60, if not exactly 60. 

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Oh, good.

Manoj Patil: Why? That is transformative. Now students are graduating on time instead of just spinning the wheel. The next thing we are working on based on transformative is for the first time in Little Priest history, we might be very close to be removing remedial education, dev ed education by next two years. So that they take gateway courses right away. So when we talk about transformative, it's not about just transformative what I think it is, it is what is actually happening at the student level on the, what is happening for the students.

So we are doing for student success and we are making it intentional. It's not like, it's a side effect of what we're doing. No, it's actually an intentional effort. And we are making sure that everybody is participating in the journey. And it's all put together in the strategic plan. Our strategic plan is 222 pages. It's detailed. We have put in every comment of the students from employees, so much so that Achieving the Dream last month in Orlando gave us the Leader College designation.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Yes. So we are proud of that. If I had like fun noises like the original Ed Up usually does, I'd be doing cheers for you right now. But thank you. Yeah, that's amazing. I really, really do appreciate the narrative that you're sharing about. Like this is not just this is not just one person, one college president's perspective, right? Like this is, yes, this is your perspective, but it's what is also being perceived by the community and being shown through that student success. And it is a journey, right? One of the sayings that came from one of my other institutions, Northern Michigan University, our center motto was the gift is in the journey. And yes, absolutely, this gift is in the journey. These are gifts that we've had to kind of, not kind of, really work for ourselves, right? We've taken what has been given to us and made a better experience. And the gift at the end of all of this is higher student success outcomes and community wellbeing, right? And so President Townsend, I'm gonna share the mic with you. And if you could kind of share a little bit about what your journey was in these transformative efforts that an emerging tribal college is really being able to bring to your community.

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: Okay, great. I just really appreciated hearing everything from President Patil. You know, I think ours stems from the trust, restoring trust back in education, not just through our students, but the tribal community. California has the largest American Indian population. Over 1.4 million people claim to be Native American Indians. One of the things that we have been trying to deter from is using that word indigenous because that is all inclusive. It's another way for the government to shorten, lessen our budget instead of doing it by tribes or nations. They're indigenizing us with other ethnicities because everybody truly is an indigenous person. So this is something that we're trying to teach and transform, you know, just the state and the understanding so that our people don't accept that word indigenous. 

So trusting in education, trusting in the government, trusting in the systems is one of our biggest transformations that we're seeing. I have yet to meet more than 15, I think we're still at less than 15, tribal chairs because of that distrust in education, because of the mistrust of the demise of our predecessors. So I think seeing the impact in the community, hearing the voices of our students saying it's safe to go back to school now, I'm accepted. I can do better. People look like me. I think there's that huge, you know, phenomenon of the sense of belonging. They feel they belong. They feel that they are truly included. 

I did hear President Patil mention access. Well, access is not inclusion. Dr. Anthony Jack stated that in his study at Harvard. You know, access is not inclusion. Just because they're admitted into a college, they're not provided the individualized and personalized services. There's differential learning. There's differential learning and trust. There's differential understanding of educational systems. People are, you know, our people are sold on just getting the certificate, which is great for professional development, but the education is what lasts forever and cannot be taken from them. And that's what we're trying to do with our community, is showing them that so that they too cannot just have access, but they're included in this extended knowledge of education. Because as President Patil stated, post-secondary education is reachable. It's there. We just have to provide a system and an institution that can be trusted for our people. 

And I think, you know, another thing is graduating on time. One of the things, because, you know, there's so many expectations that they, you know, I know they did rid of the testing to get into universities. It's not so much the testing, it's acclimating to the environment, the setting, the structure. And this is something we do at a community college level. We show them how to navigate. We help them gain that confidence so that when they leave California Indian Nations College, they have that confidence. 

One of the things we're really proud of is our Pathbreaker program. One of the tribes has provided a multimillion dollar support for us to bring this on. And we initially started it with a three-tier guided path or journey to higher learning, but we've instituted a fourth tier. So we have it broken down at the, again, the differential learning, differential expectations for student and institution. So we have the brand new student who has never been to college. First, then completely oblivious to what to expect or what they should look for. And then we have those that are returning after a year or two years that just need a little bit more guidance, getting their plans underway. And then we have those who are on their way to graduate. Are they looking for strictly professional development? Are they looking for higher learning? And do they realize that the sky's the limit, that they don't have to stick in California, they can go elsewhere. We will help them with that. We have now included the fourth tier, those who have graduated, and they come back and we will never close our door to them. 

And I think this is something that goes along with our structure. I don't want top heavy. I don't want a lot of presidents and vice presidents and directors. I want people to work with our students. And I think this is something, you know, having worked in institutions at the UC level, you see that everybody's a VP, everybody's a dean, but there's very little, and I call them worker bees because they're the ones that I have the most respect for. They're the ones that do it. I was a worker bee and I consider myself, you know, in the trenches with my team. 

So I think transforming the understanding, respect, in educational system, and understanding that we have the largest tribal representation of the state. We have a lot of change to do. We have a lot of potential as the model for the state, and we want to make sure that the community sees that, but we also engage the community. I just had a meeting yesterday morning with the Morongo Tribal Council and it went beautifully. And, you know, again, you know, a couple of weeks ago with Pala Tribal Council, that's just a fraction. You know, we have so many, I would say within the 20 mile radius, at least 10 tribes and they're gaming tribes. It's just incredible how many tribes are here and, you know, getting them to trust the college system.

We constantly hear of the students that go to universities that come back or quit. And that there's something, there's a reason for that. It's that home atmosphere. And we heard that specifically from the tribal council yesterday. Their students are getting scholarships and they go away and they're not prepared. And I think at the tribal college, we can help them prepare with that confidence, learning how to navigate the systems and also gaining a highly rigorous curriculum. I don't want anything to be substandard as where they've come from other areas.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Thank you so much for sharing that, both of you. I think some of the key terms that I took away from both of what you were saying was responsibility and trust. And I think you touched on something really important, President Townsend, that when we're discussing this population of students and tribal colleges and universities, and this is more for the audience, that our distinction is a political identity, not a race and ethnicity. So what President Townsend was trying to explain is that tribal colleges must be chartered by a tribe. They must have majority American Indian and Alaska Native students. Those students are recognized or members of the federally recognized tribes in the United States, which have the treaties nation to nation, which brings into the discussion trust and responsibility. 

So one we know from the 1830s and then a more renewed piece of that act was this, the federal government moral obligation and trust responsibility to the tribal nations. They stated that themselves. We know that in the 60s and 70s, those tribal nations began creating their own tribal colleges and universities. So they understood their responsibility. Our students understand resistance and living in two different worlds every day of their lives. They understand that responsibility. I think the question of responsibility and trust for me comes from what responsibility do others have to our student population and to our tribal colleges and universities?

I'm getting ready to speak at the Midwest Association for Graduate Schools, encourage them to help produce more graduate programs at tribal colleges. And the key question is, well, why is it our responsibility, right? Everyone else wants to know what that means for them. So we know the tribes believe it. We know the government knows it. Whether they follow through, that is a different story. And I now want to hear from you. What do you think responsibility and where it lies with the communities outside of our tribal nations and tribal colleges. And I'll let President Townsend go first.

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: Wow, this is huge because I think too, I grew up in a very urban populated city of Riverside all my life. And it comes emotionally challenging for me because I never knew I struggled in elementary school being one of very few brown people in my elementary. Not knowing as a child that I was living in two worlds, going back to the reservation, because I lived here in Riverside, we would go to the reservation every summer to see my grandparents and always lived there on the reservation for months of the year. And it was normal. And then you'd come back and, you know, it was normal to be in a predominantly white elementary school. 

It wasn't until I was in the fifth grade and I had this gorgeous t-shirt that had this native motif. And it was my favorite t-shirt. And it wasn't until a kid, and I vividly see his face laced with freckles, his blue eyes, his brown hair, and I know his name. I won't say it. But fifth grade, and I'm going to be 60 years old next year. But it resonates that clear to me. He pointed at me and goes, "blah, blah, blah, blah, What is that?" Oh my goodness. You know, I never cried. I get emotional about it now because I didn't realize how much it hurt. Right. And I never wore that shirt again to school. 

And seeing what students are going through now, not even two miles from my home, was less than three years ago, there was a teacher that used, she would put on feather, paper, a headdress, danced on the table on the Sohcahtoa trigonometry method. And I can't imagine what that student went through when he videotaped it and then showed it. And then the ridicule he got from his classmates saying, get over it. Right. So I think the expectations, you know, we as students, as people, native community, we don't expect it. We don't expect to know, and we can't expect our children and our people to know how to deal with that. But also educating the community to show them that we do exist. We were not conquered. We're still here stronger than ever because conquered is getting rid of us and we were not rid of. 

I will share too. Last year, I just started my doctoral program in January of last year. And I want to say it was the third month, fourth month into my program. One of my classmates had the audacity to tell me that too. You guys are conquered people. How come you guys don't get over it? I won't say what I said because it was not of a lady and not of somebody of me, but I did not. The F word was dropped. 

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Tell me later. I need to know it. I will.

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: But I ended up, you know, I basically told him what I said there. You know, we're here, we're stronger than ever, and it's people like you that make me fight. I didn't apologize for what I said. I apologized to the classroom because I did have that outburst. And it's, again, you know, the, not only the ignorance, the choice of ignorance that some society members choose to have. So I think the two worlds is very real, not just for Native, but all people of ethnicity. We all have culture and beauty and history and traumas, but I think it comes down to respect. 

When I, in our first semester of teaching, there is a gentleman, who has his doctorate, he's native, local native, and I was so pleased to have him come teach. And I remember walking through the hall in the evening and I could hear the students clapping and just loving whatever it was this professor was saying. When I peeked, I was like, whoa, because he's very calm, he's very quiet, he's very, he's very traditional.

One of the challenges we have as an emerging institution is that our hiring for faculty goes through the host college. And that college has to hire our faculty even though we're billed and we pay them. It's based on their recommendation. And this professor who teaches for UCR was not approved, was not hired for our college. And they said, because he didn't pass the interview. And the only thing I can think of, again, living in two worlds, Western society, you're there for yourself. You're there to compete. You're there to outshine people. Native community, we're there for our community. We don't sell ourselves. And that really hits me hard because I see how he relates to our students. He is a doctor, has this doctorate for many years and teaches and yet couldn't pass this westernized, colonized system to teach for my college. So believe me, pushing through to become accredited so that we can show the students that there are two worlds and there are expectations. Yesterday we just had mock interviews for our students because I want them to see, you know, it's not in the norm for us to sell ourselves, but we have to be prepared for those expectations.

And so this is something, again, the two worlds, there's so many different aspects that haven't surfaced when it comes to employment, when it comes to education, when it comes to speaking, when it comes to sitting in a classroom. I mean, I just went through it. And again, 60 years old and I'm with people who are going for their doctorates and they're making these ignorant statements. So I think that the political identity is huge. It's there. It comes back to educating the community.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Thank you for sharing. Quickly before we go on for President Patil to respond, I think I just want to hold a quick space that those experiences that President Townsend described are not an isolated incident. We hear that across Indian country with our student population. I want to just let everyone who's listening know that your feelings about those experiences are valid. Never apologize like President Townsend said, and that you do have support. And one side note, President Townsend, please contact me after this so that we can talk about what kind of advocacy I could provide with UC Riverside and that faculty member, because that is important. So it lends into the question. What other responsibility, President Patil, do non-native or non-tribal institutions or communities have to seeing our tribal colleges and students succeed? What advocacy could they provide?

Manoj Patil: One of the, you know, I work for Higher Learning Commission as a peer reviewer. So, and now I actually just got selected to Institution Actions Council. So, so one of my, one of the advantages I will have is to reach out to these institutions and educate them. But more powerful, I'm going to bring back data again here is when you can show the success of your students at the tribal institutions and non-tribal institutions, collecting that data and showcasing that, you know what, there is an emotional aspect, yes, then there is a data aspect. You know what, these students, like your own students, are graduating from your own institutions with less help, with less facilities, but they are dedicated students. They wanna make a difference to themselves, to their families, to their communities. 

Second, I think ignorance in this is not bliss. Ignorance is not bliss. And they have to make intentional efforts to, they have to make intentional efforts to understand our students. So for example, I deal with a lot of articulation agreements and stuff like that. And one of the things I always see here is like, first question they ask is, is tribal colleges only for tribal students? So that itself shows me that they are not prepared. So should I blame them or should I take this as an opportunity to educate them? I've gone through that phase of my emotions. Now it's like, okay, let me explain what we all do.

So we have to be intentional as leaders of the tribal colleges to educate non-tribal leaders to be there, but also show them data. Because without that, it still becomes your emotions and stuff like that, which is important. Don't get me wrong, never undermine emotions and anecdotal information. But you know what? I tell them, you know what? Wayne State College have graduates, some of the graduates are Little Priest tribal members. So now how do you want to differentiate it? And now as some of them have gone to graduate school. Just so in another example, one of our first graduates from Little Priest Tribal College is working for Biden-Harris administration right now.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Wow.

Manoj Patil: So again, it is very different when we explain. And I see a shift, a sparkle in their eyes. Oh my God, you guys do all these things. So it takes time. I'm on the Siouxland Chamber of Commerce board here by the, was one of the board of directors, which is 30 miles away from the college. I'm the only one representing, you know, the native community, I would say. And I, and they all know me and I explained to them what we do. When we talked about free tuition for all, they thought free tuition for only native students.

So there is a default understanding with, but you have to break the barriers. We are in the best times to break the barrier than ever before. You can take it as a challenge or you can take it as a, you know what, how come these people don't know? I don't fight that way. You know what, let me take this opportunity to actually explain what we do and how we are making a difference. My main thing is treat every student the same way, treat, give the students, all students the same playing field, then compare. That's my, always I'll say that when you are given two different platforms, comparing apples and oranges is not fair at the time. 

So, but a lot of advocacy, even for the foundations, when I asked for a million dollars, some of the foundations had not even heard about Little Priest Tribal College, which is one hour north of Omaha. Right. They didn't know. Do I fight that? No, I don't. I accept this. And I said, hey, this is what we do. This is what we do. This is the social economic impact we're doing. So then they're like, my God, we want to come and visit you guys. Come on down. Let's show you what we are doing. And then you can see a paradigm shift in their thinking. And these are the same people who are now ready to give us money.

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: You know, I have to disagree on some points here because, you know, when you say treat all the students the same, you really can't. You really can't. And I think, you know, coming from Nebraska, where you have a few tribal nations, you know, I could see that you're closer and you probably are on a reservation. We're in the metropolitan area and we deal with many tribes and there are several tribes. We have 110 tribes in California and we have 60 who are not recognized by the state or federal government. So when you look at that, there's inter-tribal warfare. They cannot be treated the same. We have DACA students that have attended ours. You can't treat them the same. We have students who come from the wealthy gaming tribes and we have students who are homeless. We have students who have hitchhiked who sit in a parking lot, you know, who need that access to the internet, who need a laptop. There's such a differential need in the students. We can't treat them the same. It has to be personalized. 

You know, I agree to that. I agree. Great point, by the way. And then on educating them, you know, we hear this all the time. We need to educate society. We need to educate them. You can't you can lead them to this data that you have, which is fantastic. They can push it aside. In my response to that, what we did as the tribal colleges, we had an education summit just last weekend or the weekend before where we have the state, we have the federal government, we actually had Anna WhiteRhodes from AIHEC, we had the White House there, we had Tony Thurman from the Department of Education in California there. We had several people come and tribal nations come. I had two mothers. Both of them with eight-year-old daughters, one from Northern California, one from Southern California. Eight years old and their children are being beaten up in school. You can't treat them the same. You really can't. You have to educate, you have to approach them, you have to give them that love and sense of community that they all need. And this is at eight years old and one of them being homeschooled. She was threatened to have her organs taken out and sold. Eight years old.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Eight years old, this cannot happen. And if this is the introduction they have to education at such a young age, how can they believe in a college? How can they believe in public mainstream education? That's their experience as a child. We do love when there's different. It's really sad. It's extremely sad, but these are things, these are areas of education that are hidden.

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: You know, and like you said, the data, yeah, let's bring out the data. Let's surface the data. And I will tell you, we put out a needs assessment, and I'll be happy to share it with you all, that focuses on Indian education throughout, and a little preface is noted in our book. So we have an institutional researcher who's been working on this. This is just the needs assessment. We're working on a feasibility study because there's never been data for Native students in California, it's been skewed, just as our blood quantum and our citizenship has been skewed. And this is something that, again, like you said, yes, we need to educate them, but how? How do you educate people who choose to be ignorant? There's a lot of ignorance and it's a choice.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Yeah, I think you guys both bring up a really good understanding for folks so often people think our communities or the tribal colleges are homogenous. There's like one monolith and we're all the same, right? And I think this discussion, which we always encourage difference of opinions to be shared here because it's important, right? Here our audience now understands even with among two tribal colleges, how different that experience will be with a state like Nebraska versus California.

But I think an underlying issue is that our student population, that othering and the racism, the systemic sort of oppression from our entire engagement with this education system exists, it's there. And so while our students are gonna experience some of the same financial concerns or access concerns, they're also going to have to navigate that othering and the racism regardless of really where our tribes are located, I think all of our students are probably, and more than likely our children of color across the nation are experiencing something of that nature in one way or another. So I think this was really important that you didn't agree, right? And had such a different view or perspective. 

I think that leads into the next question for me then. We just celebrated 50 years with AIHEC. Little Priest just celebrated 25 years of existence. California Indian Nation College is now moving into their beginning, right? And so we refer to that first 50 years as the first circle of the tribal college movement. Amazing foundations were built. Amazing people were leading the way. And unfortunately, at the end of that circle, we saw the loss of founders like President Lionel Bordeaux at Sinte Gleska University in South Dakota and President Joe McDonald, a founder of Salish Kootenai College in Montana. With those losses, everyone started asking, well, what comes next then? What do we want for the second circle of the tribal college movement? And how do we blend those two perspectives that you shared, right? Finding a way we're treating all students with respect and dignity as President Patil was essentially saying, but also understanding the nuance that our students have another layer to that, right? And so instead of just building or rebuilding in that first circle, how are we going or what do we wanna do to see us thrive in these contemporary times, no longer struggling to just be seen or heard, but to be leading in this higher education field as tribal colleges and universities. So I'll let President Patil, if you wanted to go first, and then we'll send it to President Townsend.

Manoj Patil: One of the things I think uncharted, I should not say completely uncharted, but it's getting there, is the research. One of the things we, in the next 50 years is let's move, close the first circle, let's open the circles into research. Reservations, tribal nations need researchers among the water quality, food quality, food sovereignty. I really believe the next 50 years is gonna be to really hone in on the research aspects of each reservation, the medicine, we actually had NASA contact us that there seems to be a plant on our area, Thurston County, Winnebago reservation that can be helped to soothe astronauts on Mars. So they had contacted us, they came here actually to our lab, showed the lab and everything, but why can't we do that type of research? Why can't we move from just getting them post-secondary education to post-secondary education slash research. There's a USDA grant that's available. There's a lot of TECAP grants that are available. So I know a lot of other bigger tribal colleges are moving. And as a peer reviewer myself, I end up seeing that from other colleges. But I think all tribal colleges needs to embrace research going forward. And just not on the career tech side, but also on the... And the next thing start thinking about AI. AI is hurting or helping based on whom we ask everywhere. So why can't we all be our own leaders in AI? Maybe travel AI summit can, you know we can take the lead on that as well. 

So I feel the next 50 years will be research and post-secondary education becomes the new norm where everybody, oh yeah, what's a big deal? I'm getting a college degree. What's a big deal? Now I want to go into research. So, and then basically move into these career offices in NIH, NSF, where they are involved in decision making that impacts tribal nations. So their value addition starts impacting their own reservation. That's what I see in the next 50 years is, and then the next thing is to see our tribal colleges having their own medical colleges and engineering colleges.

Like for example, now Navajo Tech has an engineering program, robotics program. How about imagine Little Priest Tribal College medical college, medical, yes, as its own medical college. So I think the next 50 years is a great time for us. And of course the Congress has to back us with appropriate funding to pay us. I think President Townsend really honed in on it. It's so important to treat us a little differently because of this unequal, unequal funding. There's no parity for us. And I think this is a great opportunity. But that's what I feel. If you ask me what should be the next 50 years is research. Let's go into research.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Thank you. Awesome. Thank you, President Townsend.

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: So remind me the main question here. I'm sorry.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Oh my goodness. What did I ask? What do you envision? Where this second circle of the tribal college movement?

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: Of course, sustainability as President Patil indicated, but I think too, it's how we go about doing that. You know, it's not just the funding and of course, you know, medical research, everything is highly important, but it's also how we go about sharing this information and sharing the needs and I guess you could say the positivity, the success of tribal colleges of our students. I think one of the things I'd like to see personally is the collaboration amongst the very few tribal colleges that we have, less than 40. I mean, there's no reason we could not all share in some sense the strategic plans for each area as we know they're very different.

Again, with us having the largest native population, we too need to be informed of those that come from outside of California. And I think having those outside of California be informed of what we're dealing with here in the state of California, where it's highly populated and we are exposed to the metropolitan areas and the challenges that we have. You know, there may be more racism that our people experience in the state or there may not be. I think there's a lot of homelessness, there's a lot of needs that have yet to surface. We have people that we know, especially from working at Sherman, that I know they come from dwellings that are considered substandard in California. So how do we show them the value of education? I think it's educating our own people, but it's also educating the community on what we as tribal colleges do and have. And knowing which colleges have those specializations, whether it's medical, whether it's technical, whether it's STEM, let's focus on those and let's even share resources. 

President Patil talks about 25 years, that's fantastic. We'd love to reach that. We're at our fifth year. We just started our sixth year, and yet we don't have a campus. And we're at capacity. So those are struggles we have. It's not just bringing awareness and the differential learning of our students and supporting our students with the personalized services. It's soliciting funding. It's sustaining our college. It's recruiting. It's having a home where they feel like home, but promoting and providing that vigorous and higher learning. So I think seeing a collaborative approach for emerging colleges and truly having and embracing it with AIHEC, these other three that we have in California, they're left alone. Had it not been for us to regroup with them and help support them as much as we can, they're left alone. How many other tribal colleges that are trying to emerge or out there that we know nothing about. I think we need to help them, especially when you see that the HBCUs and the historically black colleges have well over 100 colleges, and we still have under 40. So I think awareness is huge over the next generation, but also a collaborative approach for tribal colleges and the sustainability of tribal colleges.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Thank you. Amber, do you have any last questions for the presidents?

Amber Morseau: Yeah, I think, you know, President Townsend, what you were talking about as far as awareness, right? And bringing to light a lot of those hardships and ways that we can move forward in being able to support our students and continuing to build into the resiliency of our communities. I really do appreciate that and, you know, I always appreciate that very honest perspective, because it does talk about, you know, some of those things that we really do need to work on in Indian education and some of the ways that we can really progress that moving forward. 

And to end on a good note, one of the things, my question that I'd like to ask you is, you know, what is one of the things that you guys are looking forward to in the next year that energizes you that celebrates your students, celebrates your colleges and really brings that positive resiliency to our communities as we kind of wrap up with our final question here.

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: You know, our tagline is something that I'm very proud of because I think it stands personal for me. It's to educate, strengthen, and empower, not just the student, but our community. And I think providing a rigorous, high-quality education is key. So I think for us is identity. I struggled with my identity as a kid, and I think there's many others who do, accepting who you are, why you are and where you're going is huge. And I think identity is something that our Native communities still struggle with. There are some that are still hiding or are afraid to share their values, to share who they are, their culture. And there's some who are starting to come out and are ridiculed. I think identity and the sense of belonging in tribal education so that they can flourish is key for us. I'm excited to see it. We've seen it over the past five, six years. And I know it's getting stronger and I know it can only get stronger, especially with the other emerging colleges. So we're happy to do that.

Manoj Patil: I would say I'm most looking forward to the completion of the $6 million science building because it has taken a lot of efforts, a lot of efforts to make that happen. And it's going to be a big testament to our resilience, not only at the college, but the entire community to have a top-notch state-of-the-art building with state-of-the-art equipment in the labs. It will send a strong message to everybody. 

The second thing I'm looking for is hopefully starting a new career tech program at our college because there's a lot of male students. Of course, there's a lot of female students who are interested in career tech as well, but we see that a lot of our male students have expressed interest in a workforce study program. I think we have a chance to start one next year. So looking forward to those things, but mainly looking forward to next month, the graduation. Most likely it's looking like this is the highest number of people who would have walked the stage at the college's history. So fingers crossed.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: How many can I ask?

Manoj Patil: As of right now, 31. That includes...

Dr. Erica J. Moore: That is exciting. What is the date of your graduation?

Manoj Patil: May 18th.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: May 18th. I'm gonna try to come. 

Manoj Patil: Please do.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: All of us. Yeah. Are there anything that you guys want to say before we, before I start the closing? Just want to make sure you have said all the things that you wanted to share.

Dr. Celeste R. Townsend: I don't right now, but I know when we hang up, I will. I just truly appreciate and respect everything that you do, what you've done, President Patil. I think this is, it gives us hope for where we can continue to grow and aim for 25, 30 years would be fantastic. I hope to be retired by then, but who knows? I think the passion for education and the evolution of American Indian education is just astronomical. And I know my grandmother would be proud because she was one who would always plant that seed, go to school, go to school. And it's like, God, grandma, come on, you know, and go work at Sherman. Sherman is an off-reservation boarding school here in California. It's one of four that remains in the United States. And she'd always tell me, go work at Sherman, go work at Sherman throughout my high school year and I'd be like, I don't want to go work at Sherman. And where did I go work? At Sherman for 16 years. And that's where I found myself. 

So I think the exposure and the strength of American Indian education and that evolution, seeing it, being a part of it is just an honor and a blessing. And being where we are today, I can only see it getting bigger, better, stronger. I have an amazing team and I'd love to visit these other tribal colleges, Little Priest. Knowing that you're data-focused is really encouraging because that's where we're gearing, because you're right, data is crucial to our strength, to bringing that awareness. So I'm thankful. I'm just thankful to be here. It's been an honor. Thank you.

Manoj Patil: Likewise, want to, President Townsend, that last week we could meet hopefully face to face soon. And first I wanna say good luck in your great, you're doing something many only can dream of, right? To start a college and to convert it into a full-blown working college. So it's not easy, right? I've heard, yeah, but you're doing something we all are rooting for. I did message President Townsend that I'm here for you. If there's anything I can do, especially on the accreditation side.

I mentor the other presidents. I've talked to other presidents. Some have formally hired me, some informally checked with me as a peer reviewer. And that's something I actually kind of love doing this as well. Please let me know how I can help you. But it's a privilege to be here, Dr. Moore, Amber, thank you for having both of us. And this never gets boring, let me tell you. This is the driving force for presidents. And I'm speaking for other presidents as well that this type of events, podcasts can bring our voice to the entire nation and let people hear what exactly is going on. And the main thing is we are here to support our students and their success. So thank you again.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: And I love that support for one another. That's always beautiful to see for sure. Amber, I saw you come off mute. Did you want to say anything as we start to close?

Amber Morseau: I just wanted to say, many thanks to President Patil and President Townsend for sharing your perspective today and sharing the voice of your college. I 100% agree that you know these experiences are you know what we can do to be able to bring this voice to a national platform. Certainly a higher education platform since you know this is a space that we don't often get to occupy. And so I appreciate your willingness and ability to be able to share your position and share the experience of your campuses. It's been an honor.

Dr. Erica J. Moore: Yes. So as we close, I just wanted to thank you. This has been a very insightful conversation and more episodes highlighting our amazing TCU presidents will be coming soon. So make sure you check out edupexperience.com and follow me on LinkedIn. And of course, any of the folks we've just interviewed and friends and relatives, you've just been edupped. So see you later.