793: The BrandEd Education Model: What Happens When Big Brands Meet Higher Ed - with Brandon Busteed, CEO, BrandEd

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Welcome back everybody. It's your time to EdUp on the EdUp Experience podcast where we make education your business. This is Dr. Joe Sallustio back with you again. I've done this a few times now, but I am a little bit rusty. I've taken some time off, forgotten how to say my name, how to introduce this episode. So I've brought along an expert with me. She's done a few podcast episodes herself. In fact, she's grown EdUp EdTech from the original EdUp spinoff into its own powerhouse. And she has incredible guests on now doing live demos of products. Who am I talking about? Well, you know her if you've listened and you should. Her name is Holly Owens and she is the host of EdUp EdTech and my co-host today. Holly, what's going on?

Holly Owens: Hey, I'm getting back into it too. So I'm a little rusty. We took a little break as well, but I'm ready to get back into hosting. It's so much fun. Like get the endorphins going. I'm pumped. Let's get this party started.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Needless to say, you'll know who we're talking about when you hear his voice. A very distinct voice, a very clear speaker about higher ed and some of the headwinds. And I remember back the first time I spoke to him, the title of the episode was "Headwinds in Higher Education." So headwinds was the word that he used to describe it. And I think those headwinds still exist, but we're going to find out what's going on.

But Holly, I always have to come back to you for how to up my own game. And I had a black microphone. I was like, man, it doesn't do much. And then I went to a white microphone because I saw you with a white microphone and I feel like I have to one up you. But you keep one upping me. And then yours turns colors. And then I'm going, what is that? How do you keep doing this to me that you're making me envious of all of you?

Holly Owens: I mean, Target just had a sale on microphones and it just happens to change colors. It matches my outfit, you know.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: It does. It does. It's very EdTech of you. And I'm not the EdTech podcast. Right. But we're going to leave you with that. I'm not going to turn mine into colors, but we are going to talk about higher education today. And we're going to do it with, I think I would like to say he's probably one of higher education's most forward-thinking thought leaders in the space. He's done a ton of work. I'm going to let him tell you about it, but he's made a major transition in his career, which he's going to come tell us about. And here he is, ladies and gentlemen, the one and only Brandon Busteed, who is now the CEO of BrandEd. Brandon Busteed, the CEO of BrandEd fits perfectly. Brandon, what's going on?

Brandon Busteed: Yeah, thanks. Well, you know, first of all, thanks for having me back on the show. And I like the new sound effects. As you mentioned, there were no sound effects the first go around. So it's much better now that we've got that extra support and enthusiasm behind us. But yeah, I'm technically a few days into my new job and thrilled about it. BrandEd is maybe not a name that most people have heard. However, some of the brand partners that it works with are very well known. In fact, some of the most globally recognized brands in the world. We operate Sotheby's Institute of Art, Conde Nast College of Fashion and Design, School of The New York Times, and City Football Leadership Institute. City Football is the parent company of Manchester City and some other very well-known global sports properties, primarily in football as the European definition would go. 

So, in short, we're operating programs that are relevant, experiential educational programs taught by industry experts. And that is pretty much the whole story. That is what drew me to this organization because at the center of all this, I think it's the thing that students need most at every level of our educational system. And it's the thing that we're falling down on the most. And so when I saw the quality of what BrandEd was doing, its focus, the combination of working with world-renowned brand names and giving students experiences that just frankly couldn't get any other way, I was sold. So that's the quick overview.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Amazing. I want to go back. I don't know if you know this. You were on back when the EdUp Experience was a fledgling podcast and nobody listened to it. I remember I literally remember calling my mother going, "Mom, just click play. I don't even care if you listen. Just get me the downloads so I could say that I have people listen to podcasts." Episode three. Now we're on eight - I think we're close to eight hundred. Four years ago. That's amazing. Congrats. Episode three, Brandon Busteed comes on, the first higher education guest that we ever had on the EdUp Experience. And I remember talking to Elvin at the time, because you were president of Kaplan doing your stuff over there. You were doing the thought leadership and the keynotes. And we said let's go get Brandon. You think we can get him? Elvin goes, I don't know. I'm just going to text him. And I'm going to send him a DM on LinkedIn and see if he says yes. You immediately came on. And here we are.

Almost, almost to the month. I know Elvin told me not to talk about time because when we publish these episodes, but you know, I do anyway. Almost four years to the month, to the day, to the month, we have you back and incredible. So thank you. I say thank you for coming on when we were just, we had no idea what we were doing and we appreciate that. But what a transition this is for you because you were Kaplan and Kaplan was you. So to pull you away from that, it must be an incredible opportunity for you to look at this and say, this has to be the future of education. Because you don't strike me as a guy that goes, I'm going to just sit here and enjoy the ride of education. You're a disruptor. So why? Why this move? Why this company?

Brandon Busteed: Yeah, look, I appreciate you saying that. I absolutely loved Kaplan. I continue to love Kaplan, a lot of just incredible colleagues there. And as an organization, it's hard to beat. I said this in my farewell post on LinkedIn. I think it's arguably the GOAT of education organizations, right? I mean, in terms of how long it's been around, its size, the breadth, depth, diversity of what it's doing. It's a global organization that's involved in almost every major category of education. And so that time that I had at Kaplan was incredible. And it's certainly the kind of organization that I always thought I could have been there indefinitely. And so, yeah, it was not an easy decision to think about going.

I think there were really a couple of core things. A lot of the new work that I was really helping push while I was at Kaplan was around anything that sat at the intersection of learning and work, right? Like that's really been the theme of my career. It's that kind of gray area between higher ed and the workplace or between K-12 and the workplace, right. And it's a very dynamic space, although it's still in the grand scheme of things in its infancy. But I think if you look at the five plus years that I was at Kaplan, a lot of the new initiatives that I was able to help get off the ground while I was there were at that intersection. 

And so, you know, when you think about BrandEd, the theme is really consistent. And I think it just was one of those things where it's a chance to be CEO of an organization that has some real track record already behind it. It still feels like there's unlimited potential in terms of where it can go. And again, back to what I said earlier, I think it's at the epicenter of what's needed most in terms of what students need most: relevant, experiential education taught by industry experts. And it's the thing that the global higher ed systems and quite frankly secondary systems are failing to do and failing to scale. And when they are doing it, I think there's still a lot of room for improvement in terms of quality. 

Last month, I was able to visit a lot of the locations and campuses where BrandEd operates between Sotheby's and Conde Nast and School of The New York Times, et cetera. I sat in on a lot of the programs that students were going through. And I was just blown away. I mean, I was a fan, obviously, before I experienced it, but to see the interaction between the students and people who are real experts in the industry, visiting these offices and locations, doing hands-on projects as part of it. That's what education should be. So I'm hopeful that we have a chance to go on a really big run, to be both a disruptor in the space, a true alternative to what's out there and I think a major partner to school districts and universities that are sincere about trying to ramp up work-integrated learning and more experiential opportunities for students.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Before I pass to Holly, I do want to ask you about the global piece. Was that an important part of this? Did the fact that BrandEd had a global influence increase the value proposition because it's bringing in so many different types of educational models and companies and so on?

Brandon Busteed: Yeah, look, I mean, I think it's hard not to be thinking and acting as a global business in the education space. I mean, certainly Kaplan was and has a major global footprint. Here's a simple way of thinking about it: although there's still plenty of opportunity to serve students in the United States, the United States is not growing, right? The human pie in the United States is not growing and it's not expected to grow for foreseeable decades. Yikes! Globally, the middle class is expected to skyrocket. So, you know, I think there's that, right? The global market is growing much more rapidly than the U.S. market, but it's also an international flow of talent, right? When you're looking, if you're a company looking for the best talent, if you're a college or university looking for the best students, I mean, you have to be operating and playing on an international scale. 

So I think, yeah, that was certainly part of it. I doubt I would have done something that would have been single country focused or what you would consider single product or offering focused. And that said, I think BrandEd does have a real focus in terms of working with global brands, right? Global corporate brands and curating these experiences that students can't get any other way. That at its core is, I think, a real focus and a real exciting one in terms of what it's doing right now and its ultimate potential.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Yeah. Holly, over to you.

Holly Owens: Yeah. Everything you're saying has truly resonated with me because I teach in higher education and I teach teacher instructional designers. And one of the components that's missing from our program is the real world experience. And I don't understand why there's such a pushback or there's such a challenge getting that piece into the programs. You know, like from a work perspective, like having that real world experience, that application piece is like the top priority for learners. They want to be able to, they're investing in thousands and thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases getting these degrees. And then they turn around and they have to shift and it takes them a year or two to feel comfortable in the workforce. 

So why aren't we doing this sooner is my question. Why is it such a, why was it such a, you're disrupting it. Yes. But I think this should have been happening obviously years ago. And I'm like pushing my students to like, go find internships, go find this because the institution itself isn't necessarily out doing that. And places like BrandEd are bringing that experience to the students. And it's so necessary. When you're bringing people on board, like you're losing a lot of time on the front end because you're taking such a long time, three to six months to onboard them, whether that's with technologies, whether that's with application pieces of the theories and knowledge. So that's what I was thinking the whole time you were talking.

Brandon Busteed: I mean, to some degree, what BrandEd is doing, I think, is unique in terms of the combination of working with global iconic brands and curating some of that. That said, right, the idea of experiential work-integrated learning is not new at all. The issue is it hasn't really been prioritized. I think it's moving from what was more fringe to quickly mainstream. I really believe we're at that point, right. We're somewhere between it being treated as like a nice to have for a handful of students in a particular program. Like that was really the big critique. If you go back to my Gallup days and the big Gallup-Purdue Index, right? Like the big findings from that study were that having a job or an internship where you were able to apply what you were learning in the classroom was a game changer, right? Working on a long-term project that took a semester or longer to complete was a game changer in terms of your long-term success. That said, only a third of graduates in the United States hit the mark on those, right? And so, you know, I've always run into a lot of conversations with college leaders where there's some kind of disconnect here.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: I'm sensing this is lunacy.

Brandon Busteed: Yeah, right. You got some of the most important experiences a student can have and only a third of them are hitting the mark. Right. And so the issue has been prioritization or intentionality and scale. So because every college leader can point to a program that they've got. We've got a program where these students do X and Y and Z. Right. Everybody's got an example of this. But then you ask them a question, say, well, how many students are in that program? And then the answer is like 30 or 45 or right like it's and then you step back and you go, okay. Well, can you scale this work? Heck yeah, look at look at the co-op institutions, right? Northeastern and Drexel and University of Waterloo in Canada. These are really large institutions, 20,000 plus students, every one of them is getting a co-op experience, right? So but they're institutions that intentionally built that into their model and so, you know the idea that we can't do this is false, the idea that we can't scale it is false. The real challenge is, are we going to put our money where our mouth is on this? 

We know it's one of the big demands of parents and students as they're thinking about the collegiate experience. And they're asking really tough ROI questions like, OK, what kind of job does this lead to? And what kind of career does this lead to? And you know what? Those are fair questions to be asking, given where we are in higher ed right now. And I have to say this. We probably mentioned this because it was a true stat the last time we talked, Joe, but today's 18 to 24 year olds are the least working generation in US history. So as much as I can fault the education system and higher ed in terms of falling down on the work they can do here, there's also just the reality that these are students that have had far less work experience than any generation before. Why would we expect them to be work ready if that's where we're at? Right. There's work to be done, but I don't believe that this is rocket science in terms of trying to solve for what's needed. It's about intentionality and scale.

Holly Owens: That's a fact. That's a fact. Like what you're saying right now is I do a lot of job postings and I read a lot of job postings and one of the entry level positions say three to five years experience. And people always complain to me, well, where'd I get that three to five years of experience? This is the answer. This is what needs to happen because if entry level positions expect somebody to come in and be able to take on the responsibilities and the technologies and everything, we need this experience in higher education to prepare these learners, these students for success in the workplace. Even if they're not working right now, they still, even if they have that entrepreneurial spirit and they want to go do something on their own, they still need that experience as well.

Brandon Busteed: Yeah. I mean, look, we really haven't scaled internships at a national level for decades, right? Large companies are able to run internship programs. It's the small and medium sized ones that, you know, it's much more challenging to do so. That's also where there are incredible opportunities. But anyway, long story short, we just haven't scaled internships, right? So we need to come up with other ways to scale work integrated learning opportunities for students. So short of a full blown internship or co-op, right? How can we create more of these opportunities where they're getting access to real industry experts? They're working on real projects. They're involved in real sites and workplaces as part of the process. And that's very much part of the BrandEd DNA. 

You know, one of the visits I did when I was in London was to visit Sotheby's headquarters in London. And we sat down with some of the leadership there and we're talking about the Sotheby's Institute of Art work that we were doing. Anyway, long story short, it came up that they have about 20 current Sotheby's employees there in London alone, just in London, that are former graduates of Sotheby's Institute of Art. Right. And they at some point had an internship or some sort of work study opportunity. You wonder, you know, how companies are doing hiring now. They're hiring from their internship and other type of academic work study programs. And that is going to be the essence of how a student transitions from a student to an employee in these organizations - they had some prior work experience, whether that was short-term, longer-term, more formal paid, unpaid, all of these things are increasing the likelihood that students are going to get a good job at one of those institutions.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Let's get into the nuts and bolts of BrandEd, just a bit Brandon, how does it work? Okay, so tell me a little bit of how this works. Am I a K-12 student? Am I a student at a university? Am I an aspiring university student? I want to go take a learn more about media through the New York Times, which by the way, I want to talk about the match of education and brand a little bit when we get in a little bit. But am I taking this as a non-credit? Is it a certificate? Is it a credential? How do I define and understand it? And is it transferable? Am I even getting into that? Talk a little bit about the mechanics.

Brandon Busteed: Yeah. There's a pretty big mix from a full portfolio of summer pre-college programs, right? So students that are in 9th, 10th, 11th grade who are doing intensive summer programs, right? School of The New York Times, for example, has a thriving summer program in New York City, a gap year program, right? So those are pre-college students. They're also current college students who are doing intensive programs with journalists from the New York Times, right? And so that would be an example of kind of the pre-college and current student portfolio. 

Sotheby's Institute of Art, for example, and Conde Nast College both operate degree programs, master's degree programs at both Sotheby's and Conde Nast. Conde Nast does have one bachelor's degree program. So, you know, the BrandEd portfolio has a mix of everything from pre-college, for example, City Football Institute, it's mainly executive level professional development leadership type programs. So, you know, we're serving a number of different student demographics, ages, and everything from essentially a non-credit intensive summer program to master's degrees that students could obtain. 

So it's a bit of a mix across the portfolio and the various brand partners that are part of it. But the one consistent theme is relevant, experiential, taught by industry experts, right? And that combination is found in every single aspect of every program that BrandEd runs.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: There's a couple things that I really like about what you're doing. Number one, and I get to say this and you'll probably be more humble about it, but there are certain leaders in higher education today that have their own brands and those brands have a footprint. You're one of those individuals and you know, you had Busteed Bold and you had your podcast and you have the newsletter that you had and you've been doing keynotes on the future of higher ed. So you created a personal brand aside from your professional brand. Then you come to an organization like BrandEd who has their own brand, but you elevate that brand in certain ways. For example, I had never heard of them before until your announcement and being dead honest. And now I go, wow, I'm on their website. I've done a bunch of research. I've taken a look at it and I go, wow, this is pretty interesting. So in just that match and the point I'm making is that higher ed leadership is changing in certain ways that have a lot to do with individual brands. But you're elevating that brand with your personal brand. They're going to be contributing to your brand by the work they do globally. Now it's a question - what do you do right now? You've made this match. You've found this perfect, literally a name, perfect match for your career. How do you prioritize at this point? What do you do? Where do you what do you what do you do? You're new CEO, you're going to look at the financials tomorrow. You're going to meet the people. What are you going to do? How are you going to do it?

Brandon Busteed: Yeah, look, I mean, I've said this to our teams internally. I've said it publicly about kind of how I think about myself now. And that is as an education cathedral builder. I've always been inspired by the whole concept around cathedral building. You know, these are buildings that in some cases took decades or even centuries to build. And you think about the people that were involved in constructing these, many of them never saw them completed during their lifetime, right? But they knew they were contributing to something important and valuable. They knew that they were building something lasting, right? And they knew that that contribution was something that many, many generations after them would enjoy. 

I don't think we're doing enough cathedral building in education, right? I look at, and I don't want to sound kind of disrespectful or offensive to the industry, but like you look across the EdTech industry. I gotta be honest, there's a lot of organizations out there that are built for short term or a quick exit, right? Like I'm going to create a very narrow app. I'm going to sell it in a year, right? And in some respects, those things can be very, very valuable and contribute to students and to learning outcomes, right? But I don't see many folks who are really sincerely thinking decades out in terms of what they're building. And yet of all industries, right? This one, education, should be doing that more than any others, right? Because at the end of the day, you know, a true education is something that ought to last an individual's lifetime. It takes many, many, many years to take a student, for example, from kindergarten through 12th grade, let alone college, master's degree, doctoral level work. And if we're going to do it right, we need to make sure that we're building a really strong foundation, that we're building something that is going to last.

I see that opportunity with BrandEd for a number of reasons. You know, the global iconic brands that we partner with collectively between the four brands, they're more than 700 years old altogether, right? So you've got over 700 years of valuable brand building behind institutions like a Sotheby's and New York Times, Conde Nast, et cetera. And then, you also have a company that's a family owned entity. You know, I know it sounds like a relatively small thing, but I'm now an employee of three consecutive family owned businesses, right? Gallup family owned, Kaplan part of Graham Holdings family owned and controlled and now BrandEd family owned as part of Cambridge Information Group and the Snyder family. And you know, when it's a family owned entity, you can think in decades, you can think multi-generationally. I never forget Jim Clifton, the CEO of Gallup talking about making a hundred year commitment to operating the world poll. Well, only Jim Clifton and the Clifton family is going to be able to do that. Like they're, you know, it's in their DNA to think generationally, to think multi-generationally. And so I think there's something about that that's really special. That's going to be a valuable part of what we can build here.

In terms of my focus, right? There are several ways to think about education cathedral building. The quality of the educational programs and experiences for students, that's fundamental. They have to be world-class, right? That's our aim is to be world-class with that experience. The brand partners that you work with, iconic global brands, right? That's another major component of it. And I think, look, there's gonna be a real evaluation of how much of this is going to be in-person, how much of it is gonna be hybrid, how much of it is online. You know, I think those types of modality questions are questions that every educational entity needs to think very carefully about. But fundamentally, I think this is about lifelong learning and lifetime value of a student served. And that's back to this cathedral building point. 

I'm not just going to be happy that a student comes to one of our summer programs in New York, right? I want an example of like one of the students I met in London. She was there as part of the Sotheby's - we just launched this fall for the first time a Sotheby's study abroad program for current college students, first study abroad program. Anyway, she was in it and I was like, well, how'd you find out about this? And she said, "Actually, when I was in high school, I did two of the summer programs in New York city with Sotheby's." Right? And she's like, "And that was an incredible experience. And so when I thought about doing study abroad and I saw that you guys were launching the study abroad," she's like, "I hopped all over it." And she's like, "And I just enrolled in your master's program for when I graduate." That is what we're after, right? A student that had that kind of experience that propelled her not just across one, two, three, but four major programs that are part of BrandEd, like that is what I would call an ultimate outcome in the form of the example of a student.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Are you kidding me?

Brandon Busteed: No, I'm not.

Holly Owens: Wow, yeah. One of the things that BrandEd does, Holly, I'll pass it back to you. We get back to the branding piece of this. And you know, in the non-credit space, anybody who's offering something that's non-credit based or not taken into university, there's a lot of confusion around the value of that credential. I always joke, and you've heard me say it probably Holly, like my uncle brother's best friend's cousin Vinny, my cousin Vinny, offers a real estate credential. What does that actually mean? And I just paid $2,000 for it. What am I getting from it? What you're doing now, what I saw immediately when I went to BrandEd is, I know this brand. If I'm going to take a course of any kind in media studies of any kind, and it's offered by the School of The New York Times, I immediately go, I understand the value of that. That's got to be really high value if I'm spending time with a journalist. And so the value ROI is there and I don't even need to know what it costs. I'll figure that out later, but I understand the value from the beginning, right? If I understand the value from the beginning, the cost fills the gap. If it's the other way around, that's where higher ed gets, where the credential space gets really sticky is you look at the cost, don't understand the value. That's an important piece of this for you, isn't it? The branding piece specifically?

Brandon Busteed: Yeah, absolutely. Look, I mean, there's value inherent in those iconic brands, right? And there's wisdom in that, in the form of what those organizations know and have done, right? The people that they grow and develop within those organizations and who are ultimately the faculty, right? We were sitting there and one of the journalists who covers travel for the New York Times. And he had students write their own little travel column. He was reviewing and critiquing. They were doing it as a group. He then walked them through like a week in the life of what he does. And you know, you think about, you're like, a journalist, what does a journalist do? Will they write an article? Well, let's get under the hood of that. I mean, he took them methodically through what he does in a typical week. And when I say the students were like mind blown, I mean, you know, they, but it was the first time that anyone gave them like a real sense of the various things that you do in these jobs, the things that are not so exciting about them, you know, reading like the fine print of all the terms and conditions for all of your airline tickets and your cruise tickets and part of what he does in this travel column. And in any event, you know, these are things that the value of what can be taught by the people and the organizations that are part of this is a really big part of the value proposition. 

To your point, look, credit matters, right? Like it's more helpful than not if you get credit for something towards a degree or whatever, right? So absolutely where credit can be given, we should work to try and make sure that happens for students. But absent credit, right? The fundamental question is, was this valuable experience, right? Was this transformative for me as a student? And I would submit to you that if that's a yes, if that's a resounding yes for that student or that parent or guardian or whatever. Honestly, I don't think anybody cares about credit if that threshold is met. Cause let's face it, we're getting a lot of credit for stuff that isn't transformational, that didn't change my mind, my attitude, my life, my career outcomes, all that stuff. And to your point, Joe, you know, we've had credential proliferation, you know, a million unique credentials in the United States. And I said this long time ago, that, you wonder how many of those million unique credentials have any evidence that they move the needle for somebody who achieves one economically or a promotion or whatever it means. I think it's less than a thousand. It might be less than 500 of those millions. So you got 995,999 credentials out there that may be good, but they don't move the needle or an employer doesn't know about it. 

You think about it, you see a student who has on their resume that they did a program with the School of The New York Times, right? They've got a letter of recommendation from a Pulitzer prize winning journalist who was their teacher as part of that program. Like that, that's a really big deal. Credit or no credit that that's going to move the needle.

Holly Owens: Tell them like it is. So many thoughts going through my head about this. First of all, I started thinking about the movie Air and what if Michael Jordan had never signed with Nike, what our culture would be like. So I'm thinking about that. You with BrandEd, you're going to win our shoes though. Right. BrandEd. I'm thinking, I'm thinking about that, that match. Just think about how much we know about Michael Jordan and we've recognized instantly the air Jordan, the logo, the things like that. That's something that you're doing here. And that's going to be recognizable across these institutions. And for years, his legacy is going to be for years. Like he's still here, when Michael Jordan's gone, you're talking about the cathedral building. Like we're still going to be people talking about him. LeBron wears the 23. Who's going to be wearing it? You see all of these young kids that are in college. I went to a, called the Beach Ball Classic down here. I'm in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. And I know those teenagers are fighting over that number 23 on their team. And I relate that back to what I do as an instructional designer, what we do in higher education. Like we want that kind of legacy to be left for what we can do while we're here. Cause it's such a short amount of time. So that cathedral building really resonates with me, but also too, like higher ed is notorious for slow movement, getting things approved. And I'm sorry, I'm bringing up a bad point. The red tape, like that's one of the reasons that I escaped higher education and a full-time role in corporate. I work at Amazon Pharmacy now and I love it. So how do you navigate, how do you navigate some of those like accreditation things or that red tape with your institutions and your programs, like what are people there? Like, no, you can't do this or yes, this is approved. So how does that, how does it all work? I'm interested to know the nitty gritty.

Brandon Busteed: Yeah, look, there's a lot of really important nuances there and it varies as I kind of alluded to across the various brand partners that we work with. You know, with Sotheby's and Conde Nast we have accredited master's degree programs and at least one bachelor's degree program. School of The New York Times, for example, there's no degree programs run out of that, right? Those are pre-college programs and gap year programs and things. So you know, it's going to vary a little bit in terms of what we're doing with the brand partners and some of their interests and goals, you know, where we see needs that students need filled.

I'm not gonna rush to launching degree programs unless I really believe that the degree program is going to be a unique, valuable answer, right? Like I think we're doing okay in the grand scheme of things on bachelors, masters degrees, certainly ones that are more specialized in some of the areas where BrandEd works makes a lot of sense. But I think where we have a huge opportunity is to support students who are in degree programs to add that valuable experiential work integrated component that they are probably not gonna get, statistically speaking, two thirds of them are not gonna get it. And that's where I think we can be a very valuable partner to colleges and universities around the country. 

You think about the idea of an experiential semester. Study abroad is a well-known concept, right? We know what study abroad is, but why not take a semester to do an experiential semester with a Sotheby's or a School of The New York Times or a Conde Nast, right? And I think, you know, on a whole, you can still send students to a very dynamic city, like a New York City or London or Madrid, where we're currently operating programs. So they get that study abroad essence or a dynamic city essence, but you know, they're actually doing a lot of hands-on experiential work with people who are experts in the industry. To me, that's going to be a very unique differentiated offering within the space. And I think you've got a lot of US colleges and universities, for example, that are top ranked institutions, very well thought of institutions that are not necessarily in dynamic cities or regions, who would love to be able to send their students to a semester long New York City program or whatever it is, right? 

So I really believe that, you know, as much as we will do some programs as a true alternative, I think our biggest contribution that I see in the future of BrandEd is as a partner to institutions of higher education to really scale and improve the quality of these relevant experiential industry expert led programs that are in our wheelhouse.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Yeah, Brandon, Holly's so excited to chat with you. And this is what she told me. I'm going to hang out with you until the end of time. So you guys are going to be stuck talking.

Holly Owens: I'm fangirling. So I'm not. I'm asking really relevant questions.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: You are. No, I'm just kidding. I'm really focused on that. Yeah, no, it's good. And you know, one, I have to ask you this because you've gotten around to you've been at conferences, you see what's going on in higher ed in general. You have a great network, solid network of colleagues. I'm guessing some have reached out to go, "Wow, that's pretty cool. We should talk about this. We should do something together." That's probably happened more than once already, if I know how it works. And now you've got to start sifting through what's real and what's not, who's serious and what's not, who's really interested and who's not. Do you think about taking on new partners at this point? Do you solidify and understand the partners that you have? Do you look at geography? Geography is a part of this right in Holly's question about accreditation and depends on country do all this depend Where in the world are we talking about? How do you start thinking through? Entrenching or expanding Prior, you know, it's sort of my same priority question but on a more global scale and with a network you have to start sifting through. Everybody wants to work with somebody when they take on something new right away, but a lot of that falls to the wayside. How do you work through all of those? What are you doing now, Brandon?

Brandon Busteed: Yeah. Yeah, look, I mean, you know, there's a few different lenses to kind of think about. I mean, first of all, we have four incredible brand partners that we work with and we have only begun to reach the potential of any one of them. Right. And so we're at the very, very early stages of what can happen with the current partners we have. Certainly over time, right? I mean, you can think about expanding programs with those existing partners in new cities and locations, right? I like the idea of if these are going to be physical place-based experiences to be in an iconic city, right? Not just an iconic branded organization, but an iconic city. I think that has a lot of appeal. 

I think over time, certainly we're going to evaluate other brand partners and ideally in spaces that have a high degree of interest and market alignment for students. Right. And so, you know, those are that that's going to be another part of it. But I think there's just a ton of potential that we haven't even scratched the surface of with current programs, the current brand partners. And I think, look, you know, certainly thinking about more online expansion, the portfolio is small with online programs right now at BrandEd. I think there's a lot that we can do on that front. But again, thinking very carefully about, if we're gonna offer an online version or a differentiated type of program, why are we doing it? What's its purpose? What demographic of student is it serving? I really wanna make sure that we're very much market aligned in terms of student-centric market alignment. And I think that's gonna guide a lot of what we do. 

Now, when it comes to universities, we really haven't built major partnerships with universities. A lot of our students are finding us directly, right, and more of a direct student kind of consumer type framework. But where I think some of the biggest potential is, is working with universities that want to offer something like an experiential semester for their students, want to offer more of these experiential opportunities with global recognized brands. And I think, you know, we certainly are going to explore partnerships there.

That said, yeah, I mean, I've had relationships with a lot of college presidents, several that I'm in active text exchanges with right now who are very eager to try to be part of this. And I think that that's always a simple analysis, right? It's about the dynamism of the leadership team there, you know, how committed they are to being intentional around this work, whether they're thinking about it long-term. I really hate the idea of pilot tests. I hate the idea of toe in the water. You know, it's almost the death of any great program. When somebody says, hey, let's pilot it, like, let's make a commitment and do it or not do it. Right. I don't want to pilot anything. I want to do it or not do it. And I think that's, you know, those are the types of institutional partners that we're going to gravitate towards pretty quickly.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Well, you'll know soon if you're in the text exchange with Brandon, if you just made the list, he'll let you know if that if that happens. But you make a good point that any good pilot leaves so much room for people to analyze all the bad that it never really goes well because you never fully commit into your point. That'll be a commitment. It's such a, it's the overall theme of this episode is about commitment, commitment to something greater, commitment to cathedral building. And I commit to Holly Owens asking the next question.

Holly Owens: I'm really thinking, I'm already thinking, cause I work at Amazon. So we do a lot of different internships and things like that. And one of the ideas that I had was to start like an instructional design internship and instructional design has really come to the forefront. Like people know who we are now. We're not just some hermits under a rock that designed these really great learning experiences. So what I want to know from you, like basically, like you got the football, you have the New York Times, you had the fashion, where are you looking to navigate or pivot to next when it comes to expansion? Like what are your goals? Is it in healthcare? Is it in, you know, is it in pop culture and like movies or film? I know there's a little bit of that in there, but like what are your top priorities for up and coming about where you want to expand kind of your reach to?

Brandon Busteed: Yeah, look, it's a good question. It's an open question. And I'd-

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Don't violate any NDAs or things. 

Brandon Busteed: Yeah, no, I'm not. I don't really have - I don't yet have an answer for you. I mean, I think over the over the coming months, this isn't going to be-

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Long. Don't have an answer for in your first couple of weeks at work, Brandon.

Brandon Busteed: Yeah. Well, I've got I've got a short list is the answer, Holly, but I'm not going to share the short list with you right at this moment. But look, I think, you know, to your point, it would be thinking about some of the areas that are of highest demand and need in the marketplace. You know, healthcare, you know, no doubt healthcare, fast growing industry, no end in sight to that. You think about areas like analytics and finance and economics. I mean, they're, you know, this is not going to sound, you know, too profound, right? But they're kind of the high traffic areas employers are still desperately looking to hire folks. 

I think the tech space is really crowded. There's a lot of programs that are going after cybersecurity and certain things like that. My instinct is to say, we're not going to run into hyper crowded spaces unless we think we have something really unique to contribute there. I don't want to reinvent the wheel. I want to go in the areas where there's still high need. There's a dearth of these types of programs and opportunities for students. You know, there's definitely a short list of thoughts about some of those other areas, but I think, you know, like I said, the initial focus is going to be on, we still haven't scratched the surface of potential with the four brand partners we're working with. So most of the focus is going to be on that initially, you know, how we can be a partner to colleges and universities, how we can be a partner to school districts, right? 

I think about high school students who want to be able to experience what it's like to be in journalism or media. If you're an English teacher, why wouldn't you want a program to be able to send students to like we have with the New York Times, right? So we're scratching the literal surface on those things. I think if we prove it out in terms of the scale and volume as a partner to educational institutions, there's a whole bunch of really, really interesting additional brand partners that I think would certainly be of interest going forward.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Yeah, you know, the programs that you have too and the partners are immersive, right? You know, people and it's sensory. I mean, there's so much of the people human aspect to that. And that's something I think you have such a great opportunity to double down on because of everything that you just talked about in the tech space, it's less human and very cold and the way we think about it and talk about it right now. I love just the pictures on the website. It's all very human. I think that's a great point that you make. We always leave space for our guests. We've got two final questions. Brandon, you can take us home. Number one, open mic, anything else you want to say about BrandEd at all? Take it away.

Brandon Busteed: Look, if you're not familiar with it, and most people aren't right, the BrandEd brand really hasn't been a forward brand, right? I mean, the focus of the organization has been on the brands of the partners we work with, right? It's been Sotheby's and it's been Conde Nast and it's been New York Times and City Football. So the organization BrandEd has been a very quiet, relatively speaking behind the scenes partner. I'm sure that's going to evolve a little bit where we will start to be a little bit more known and visible, but what will remain is that our brand partners are always going to be forward. 

That's the other thing about education companies these days, people love promoting the heck out of their organizations. And I think it comes sometimes at the cost of the partners that they're serving. I'm not going to name any names right now, but I could go down a long list of companies. It's like, hey, check me out, organization X, and our nice new partner University of Y. No, no, no. This is always going to be partner forward, partner first. But my point about it is if you haven't heard about BrandEd, you aren't familiar with the programs, check it out because everybody who has has been impressed, right? The students who are experiencing these programs come away saying they had transformational experiences. That's a high bar, right? Like that's the bar we're aiming for. Not just a good program, not a great program, something that's literally transformational, something that when students are asked the question, they're not just putting out their CV or resume, they're actually highlighting that particular experience. Well, one time, I went to London for a, right, like whatever it is. 

So in any event, you know, definitely get more familiar with what we're doing. If you're a college or university that would be interested in setting up a partnership to have students at their institution be able to take advantage of some of these things, I'm certainly going to be eager to connect with you. So.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Awesome. And of course the website is branded-edu.com. So, and then you can find Brandon on LinkedIn or wherever you get yourself on social media. BrandEd. That's going to be a thing. That's going to be a thing. Let's just be honest. I joked. It was like, you know, I look for things to call my name. I mean, this literally has my name in it. You know, Brandon Busteed. Somebody's going, have you seen the company BrandEd? And you're going to turn and go, excuse me, what did you say? You're right. You think they're calling your name because it's so close, but it does fit. That's it's fortuitous, as they say. Of course, we always ask every guest to end the episode what you see, Brandon, for the future of higher education or post-secondary education, if you want to take it that way.

Brandon Busteed: Well, look, it's had plenty of headwinds over the last several years. And I think we're going to continue to see that. You know, the thing that I think we can work our way out of pretty much all of these things, right? Scaling work-integrated learning. I think we can solve for this, right? Like it's again, it's not rocket science. It's about intentionality and scale. There's a lot of things that I'm generally hopeful about. The one thing I continue to be really bummed around is how hyper-partisan higher ed has become. Confidence in institutions is down across all institutions that Gallup measures, but higher ed is now a statistical tie with the presidency in terms of partisanship. How we as a country manage to get our precious higher education system to that place where now it's the most politically polarized institution on par with the U.S. presidency. Incredibly troubling. I was troubled when I first saw that data in 2014. I remember being at an APLU president's meeting when we first shared it at Gallup and I was like this is a big deal. I'm scared as heck about it. Most of them were like nobody believed it. Come on. It's a temporary thing. No big deal. This too shall pass. It's just gotten worse and worse and worse. 

And so look, I am pessimistic about how we find our way out of that. I do not have a magic suggestion or formula, right? But so if you take that particular thing that I'm actually most worried about, because I don't see what the solve for is yet, the best thing that we can all do is just make sure we deliver on a great valuable proposition for students who experience it, right? Like nothing will improve things better than students experiencing higher ed and saying, that was worth it. I would do it all over again. That was a no brainer. We need more students to be saying that. And that I think is the work that we can all focus on in the years to come.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Love it. Holly, what did you think about this convo?

Holly Owens: Very interesting. And I could have talked for another hour, honestly. 

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Well, we know you can. We've listened to the EdUp EdTech podcast before. We know you could do that for another hour. No problem.

Holly Owens: Yeah, no, I'm just thoroughly enjoying these conversations are happening and these things are becoming more of the normalcy instead of like the new invention in higher ed. Because for a long time, people have been wanting this and even my learners, my students complain like, I need more of this real world stuff. So thank you for what you're doing, Brandon.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Yeah, Brandon, congratulations from all of us here at the EdUp Experience Network on your move to BrandEd. We're going to be watching closely and of course, as you evolve the organization, you have an open mic to come back and talk about it anytime that you'd like. If you have something that you want to release or some exclusive news you'd like to report live here on the EdUp Experience Podcast, we'd always love to have you and we appreciate your insights about the future of higher ed. Of course, before I let you go, she is the one and only Holly Owens, my guest co-host today. And Holly, we got to do this more often because you know I love you as co-pilot.

Holly Owens: I love being the co-pilot. I think between the two of us, we've done almost a thousand podcast episodes.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Absolutely. Lots and lots. It's a lot. Brandon's done a few himself. Ladies and gentlemen, he is the new CEO of BrandEd. He is the one and only Brandon Busteed. Brandon, thank you for coming on the EdUp Experience podcast today, nearly four years after your first appearance on episode three, if you could believe it.

Brandon Busteed: Well, I'm look, I'm thrilled to be part of it. I'm glad you guys survived my episode three and made it to episode 800. That speaks volumes to what you're doing. So I'll be delighted to join you again. And thanks a lot for the time today.

Dr. Joe Sallustio: Ladies and gentlemen, you've just EdUpped.